[unruhjonny]

I realize that this is an absolute long shot, but of late I have seen some pretty neat scans of Pontiac production stats - so maybe this isn't as much of a long shot as my gut says it is.

Regarding "special order" 'Carousel Red' paint;
!970 Pontiac code #65

As as side note, I have noticed that this paint code appears to be absent from many "1970 Pontiac" paint chip charts;
IIRC when I did have paint mixed for my car I used the paint code for "Hugger Orange" paint back in '00.

I have been told many times in the past that factory applied 'Carousel Red' paint on a 1970 Firebird is quite rare... and to back that up, I've only seen one other code 65 Firebird, and even just one example of a code 65 Camaro!

Question:
Is there any way of knowing how rare/uncommon that 'Carousel Red' paint is for 1970 Firebirds?

[John V.]

According to Rocky Rotella's book, PMD announced in Jan '70, prior to first sale of the '70 'bird, that special colors were not allowed on any '70 Firebird because the Endura bumper was sourced from the vendor in color.

Code 65 Carousel Red was one of 15 available '70 Firebird colors.

AFAIK, Carousel Red was a standard color in '70 for Pontiac. I believe it was NOT available for the '70 GTO, perhaps because of the Endura bumper used for it.

On average, each Firebird color would have appeared on nominally 3000 'birds after subtracting the Trans Ams.

As an educated guess, the most popular colors probably accounted for about 5500 'birds while the least popular colors would have only appeared on about 1000 examples. I don't know if Carousel Red would have been a popular or unpopular choice for the '70 'bird.

I have no idea what the source was, but Eric White has a tally by Lower Body Color for the '70 GTOs in his GTO book. Since Carousel Red wasn't a choice, can't make a direct comparison.

Orbit Orange totaled 618, Mint Turquoise was 774, Burgundy was 1246. The top 3 were Atoll Blue at 4980, Granada Gold at 4664, and Cardinal Red at 3777. The total '70 GTO was 40,149. The '70 'bird total was about 13% higher excluding the TA.

Not an exact tally but perhaps some food for thought.

Google '70 Firebird Carousel Red and you will see a few examples pop up. Google any other '70 Firebird color and you'll probably see a similar no. of examples pop up.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by John V.

...

Google '70 Firebird Carousel Red and you will see a few examples pop up. Google any other '70 Firebird color and you'll probably see a similar no. of examples pop up.

funny thing;
for a while there, when you googled that, a great deal of the hits were of my car!?

then i took them all down from photobucket

i have even found pictures of my car being used to sell other cars!

but as it happems to be, right now my avatar isn't my car

lol

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by John V.

... 65 Carousel Red was one of 15 available '70 Firebird colors.

AFAIK, Carousel Red was a standard color in '70 for Pontiac. I believe it was NOT available for the '70 GTO, perhaps because of the Endura bumper used for it.
...

As far as I can recall, Carousel Red was actually limited to the F-body in 1970.

[bird72]

I don't remember ever seeing it in factory literature, so seems it was not promoted in that sense (?) A few years ago one came up on ebay, a Formula. Hazy memory, but I remember it being pretty original and interesting. Then it re-appeared on ebay within a year or so, and it was changed around, incorrect stuff someone thought would better it. I remember thinking what a shame. Since then, a couple of regular Esprit type ones have popped up. It is my guess based on magazine cars, cars for sale, and cars shows, etc, that it seems a less produced color than others. I didn't know they existed for years, and have hot followed these cars since early 80's. Rare? Maybe.... maybe not. Kinda rare? I say kinda maybe...……...

[keith k]

Out of the ~40 RA III '70 Formulas I've recorded some info on over the years, 2 are Carousel Red.
Not statistically significant of course.
While I wouldn't call it a "rare" color on a '70, I feel like it's more common on '69 Birds than on '70 Birds.

[dld]

I dug out my old PPG color book. This may help. Looks like in 70 the color was limited.

I have seen this before on some colors

see pics

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by dld

I dug out my old PPG color book. This may help. Looks like in 70 the color was limited.

I have seen this before on some colors

see pics

this seems to confuse things a bit more for me;
as far as I recall, 1970 model year 'code 65' "Carsousel Red" & "Hugger Orange" were limited to the F-body;
And were somewhat limited in availablility - but on that point I am a bit fuzzy right now....
I had understood that the same colour was a regular colour for the 1969 model year - available on both A & F-bodies.
I had also understood that the same colour was not available for the 1971 model year.

Does that PPG book muddy up the model years?

Originally Posted by keith k

Out of the ~40 RA III '70 Formulas I've recorded some info on over the years, 2 are Carousel Red.
Not statistically significant of course.
While I wouldn't call it a "rare" color on a '70, I feel like it's more common on '69 Birds than on '70 Birds.

For starters;
2/40 = 5%
that seems rather low...
But also it would stand to reason that people ordering higher performance cars might want a high impact paint colour...

I had understood that the colour was available for the full model year on Firebirds - as I believe even HPP has showcased at least one late 1968 model year car which was painted in this hue to test(?) it...

[dld]

Ok here are pics of 69 MY. was on two pages.

as you all may know. color names mean nothing. look at the formula # these colors are shared across the GM lines through years in many cases.

black was the same for all car brands for years and listed in lots and lots of different names.

The spring color thing may have been to freshen up the car line in a sense buy marketing depart. just a thought .

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

I had understood that the colour was available for the full model year on Firebirds - as I believe even HPP has showcased at least one late 1968 model year car which was painted in this hue to test(?) it...

I think they were referring to 1968's Carnival Red, a special order color in 1968, which was not the same as 1969's Carousel Red.

1969 Carousel Red was an "extra-cost" color on the 1969 Firebird, not "special paint". Many times owners claim their 1969 Firebird is a "special paint" car because they misunderstand the terminology used on invoices. Pontiac describes Carousel Red (on a 1969 Firebird invoice) as "PAINT SPECL" for $12.64, but this means extra-cost, not special paint.

A true special paint car, such as Carousel Red ordered on a non-Judge 1969 GTO, was a $115.85 option and the invoice listed it as "SOLID SPECL". There were price adjustments, such as if you ordered special paint on a convertible, or a vinyl top on a hardtop, then special paint was a little cheaper at $100.05.

For 1970, Carousel Red was not an extra-cost color on the Firebird model.

Mike

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

I think they were referring to 1968's Carnival Red, a special order color in 1968, which was not the same as 1969's Carousel Red.

The article that I am picturing was a documented -- paint code car which had been painted in Carousel Red prior to the 1969 model year...

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

1969 Carousel Red was an "extra-cost" color on the 1969 Firebird, not "special paint". Many times owners claim their 1969 Firebird is a "special paint" car because they misunderstand the terminology used on invoices. Pontiac describes Carousel Red (on a 1969 Firebird invoice) as "PAINT SPECL" for $12.64, but this means extra-cost, not special paint.

A true special paint car, such as Carousel Red ordered on a non-Judge 1969 GTO, was a $115.85 option and the invoice listed it as "SOLID SPECL". There were price adjustments, such as if you ordered special paint on a convertible, or a vinyl top on a hardtop, then special paint was a little cheaper at $100.05.

For 1970, Carousel Red was not an extra-cost color on the Firebird model.

Mike

Thanks Mike for chiming in!

I am still confused by those PPG pages pictured...
Like why would a "1971" colour have a note as to being "spring 1970 only"?

[dld]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

I realize that this is an absolute long shot, but of late I have seen some pretty neat scans of Pontiac production stats - so maybe this isn't as much of a long shot as my gut says it is.

Regarding "special order" 'Carousel Red' paint;
!970 Pontiac code #65

As as side note, I have noticed that this paint code appears to be absent from many "1970 Pontiac" paint chip charts;
IIRC when I did have paint mixed for my car I used the paint code for "Hugger Orange" paint back in '00.

I have been told many times in the past that factory applied 'Carousel Red' paint on a 1970 Firebird is quite rare... and to back that up, I've only seen one other code 65 Firebird, and even just one example of a code 65 Camaro!

Question:
Is there any way of knowing how rare/uncommon that 'Carousel Red' paint is for 1970 Firebirds?

I re-read you post . I think what PPG chart is saying . The color was a late introduction to the 1970 cars . This would not make it special or at a charge but just not offered on early cars.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

I think they were referring to 1968's Carnival Red, a special order color in 1968, which was not the same as 1969's Carousel Red.

1969 Carousel Red was an "extra-cost" color on the 1969 Firebird, not "special paint". Many times owners claim their 1969 Firebird is a "special paint" car because they misunderstand the terminology used on invoices. Pontiac describes Carousel Red (on a 1969 Firebird invoice) as "PAINT SPECL" for $12.64, but this means extra-cost, not special paint.

A true special paint car, such as Carousel Red ordered on a non-Judge 1969 GTO, was a $115.85 option and the invoice listed it as "SOLID SPECL". There were price adjustments, such as if you ordered special paint on a convertible, or a vinyl top on a hardtop, then special paint was a little cheaper at $100.05.

For 1970, Carousel Red was not an extra-cost color on the Firebird model.

Mike

Mike, I wonder if you have any additional insight about this.

I have long postulated that '68 Carnival Red was the same as '69 Carousel Red, just a new marketing name assigned to it by Pontiac. Likewise, I think possibly the same for '68 Marigold Yellow and '69 Goldenrod Yellow.

The '68 "Special Order" colors were Pink Mist, Marigold Yellow, Windward Blue, and Carnival Red.

The Dupont codes were included in the '68 PMD lit. Carnival Red was Dupont 868-99539, Windward Blue was Dupont 927-99576. Marigold Yellow was L67YD003 (this might not have been a Dupont code).

In '69, it appears that Dupont changed the coding of their paint colors.

'69 Pontiac Windward Blue became 4962L.

Reportedly, the GM (or Fisher) code for the color was WA3963 for both years though proof is sketchy at best.

'69 Pontiac Carousel Red was Dupont 5021LM and GM code was WA3959.

'69 Pontiac Goldenrod Yellow was Dupont 5026LH and GM code was WA3893.

Unfortunately, I do not believe a GM code for the '68 Carnival Red or the Marigold Yellow is published anywhere.

I have speculated they would be same as their '69 "counterparts", same as Windward Blue that had no marketing name change despite the Dupont code format change.

If the respective '68 GM codes could be found, it should tell us for sure.

Just wondering if you have any other info related to this.

[MikeNoun]

The DuPont code for 1968 Carnival Red (Pontiac) was 868-99539.
The DuPont code for 1969 Carousel Red (Pontiac) was 926-99616.

There was a 926-99539 (same suffix as Carnival Red, but used a 926 prefix for the 1969 DuPont numbering system) that has been found on some special order 1970 Chevrolets.

Chevrolet used both 926-99539 (special paint) and 926-99616 (Hugger Orange) in 1970.

Mike

[John V.]

Thanks Mike. Is there a source for that format of '69 Dupont codes, after '68 all I have ever seen is the 4 digit followed by 1 or 2 letters?

Would still like to know about the '68 Marigold Yellow vs. '69 Goldenrod Yellow and confirm the '68 vs. '69 Windward Blue.

unruhjonny, actually 5% would not be considered very low when they had 15 standard Firebird colors to choose from. As I suggested with the '70 GTO nos., very low would be around 2 or 3%.

You may be right that Carousel Red was only offered as a standard color in '70 for the Firebird. Any other Pontiac, it could have been a Special Paint request and would not be approved for the GTO because of the Endura bumper.

Very unlikely that it was a '70 "Spring" color added to the color palette late, especially since the Firebird only went on sale in Feb. Almost certainly was offered the entire model run.

If it was Firebird only, curious that the PPG chart fails to identify it as such. Eric White's GTO book DOES show it as a Firebird only color for '70, along with Lucerne Blue, Keylime Green, Goldenrod Yellow, and Coronado Gold. He shows Castillian Bronze as a '70 GP only color. The Castillian Bronze however is listed in Rocky's book as one of the 15 '70 Firebird colors so I'm not sure why Eric had it as a GP exclusive. Perhaps he was confused because Castillian Bronze had been a '69 GP exclusive color as the PPG list shows.

Not sure what to make of the '71 PPG chart noting some '70 Spring colors, including Orbit Orange. Orbit Orange was announced as an exclusive Judge color in Oct. '69, not long after the '70 Model Year began and was not offered in '71 at all to my knowledge.

Chevy did announce Spring colors for the '70 Nova, Code 43 Citrus Green, Code 52 Sunflower Yellow, and Code 65 Hugger Orange. Whether this had anything at all to do with the PPG notation on the '71 color listings, I have no idea. All 3 of the "new" Nova colors may have already been regular '70 Camaro colors from the start of Camaro production. So the Spring announcement just expanded the availability of these colors to the Nova.

You may recall that the recent infamous $375,000 Craigslist '70 Firebird in Oregon was claimed to be Code 65 Carousel Red.

[unruhjonny]

yeah, the "GTO opted" one... har-har...

I appreciate any input you or others might have - opinions included.

[MikeNoun]

John, here are the 1969 Chevrolet paint code formulas. I have the 1969-1970 Pontiac codes somewhere, and I can't find them. I may have them on my old computer.

[John V.]

Mike, cool! Put this in the category of things I had once known and have since forgotten, that is the difference between the Lucite Stock No. and the Production Code. Once upon a time I had understood these two nos. for earlier years and have a pretty good resource for both nos. (and the associated Fisher Code) for the early '60s. But I never saw the Production Codes for any '69 up color, so forgot all about them. Came to think that the Lucite Stock No. had replaced the longer Production Code, now I see that they do exist same as earlier. Thanks for posting these!

If you ever stumble upon the '69 & '70 Pontiac version, would be great if you can post it.

The unusual format of the '68 Marigold Yellow code still has me stumped. Gotta believe it is not a Dupont color but haven't found any similar codes from any other paint vendor.

EDIT: Looks like L67YD003 is in the same style as codes from Rinshed-Mason. Still don't know if it matches to a Dupont color and/or if this color was ever used anywhere else in the automotive world except as a '68 Pontiac special color.

[MikeNoun]

John, here are the 1969 and 1970 DuPont paint codes.

Mike

[azbirds]

I had a 70 Formula that was carousel red with black interior. 400 4speed car. Sold it yo a nephew that promptly destroyed it!