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Old 06-22-2022, 02:04 PM
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Default I have posted many threads over the years

about aero effects of vehicles.

So if you are lazy like me, trust the guys doing the testing to do it right, etc,
it really does not matter whose name is on the vehicle.

I did the first Lightning Truck, the 2nd and 3rd Lightning trucks, and a guy I used to work with in Research is the Manager of the E-Boost technology in the Electric Vehicle organization.

A Bit of History, I went to a drag strip on time and got to see and talk to a crazy man racer named EJ Potter. EJ was known for racing a two wheel motorcycle with a SB Chevy engine sitting sideways in the frame.

But he also did the FIRST RACING ELECTRIC MOTORED vehicle raced on a drag strip.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ine-and-cables

The Super Slot Car itself was the stripped shell of a small MG 1100 front-wheel-drive two-door sedan, with four 200-horsepower electric jet-engine starter motors, one per wheel. 800 electric HP.

The electric HP came from a Generator mounted on a trailer and the generator used a Allison V-12 engine to drive the generator see photo.

The car was quick for its time: The Super Slot Car reportedly ran the quarter-mile in the low 10-second range, with a trap speed of 120 mph. Not bad for half a century ago. Many "street cars" were nowhere near a 10 second et in the quarter.

So back to the present time:

This Mule F-100 Electric truck was faster that any of the Gas Powered Lightning trucks we sold to the public, even with a supercharger installed.

The point being, ever with a terrible, ugly aero body, it was quicker and faster than the best production Lightning truck we ever sold.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/1...722250CBB15AEC

So when people say performance is dead, I say you are just seeing another way to quickly run a quarter mile.

I remember when the Drag Strip owners told Ohio George Montgomery to leave the Twin Turbo mustang at home "because the crowds want the noise vs the quick times".

So this is not about brands, I have included EJ's SB Chevy Motorcycle, his electric slot car, info on the different Lightning trucks, (boosted and NA) and
an example of the new Electric vehicle technology in a non aero vehicle.

Boosting suffered thru the early years, same deal with the traditional V-8s vs the Flatheads, and now the Electric stuff vs the piston stuff.

The new Lightning Truck technology has nothing to be ashamed of.

Tom V.

Mods, put the topic in the lobby if it fits there better.

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  #2  
Old 06-23-2022, 08:14 AM
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You've posted some good stuff.

Knew electric drive would do well on 1/4 mile bikes and cars for quite awhile, but wondered about the batteries in each approach. Lead-acid was the deal for a century until Ni-Cad and Ni-MH had a short-lived advantage until Li-ion.

I wonder how the EV Li-ion batteries will hot-lap for the masses, and expect a few to flare. Maybe some will flame-up at the big-end and make drag racing an incindiary event.

BTW; Me hydrogen generator blew up n my face a decade ago (only my pride was injured) but i rebuilt it last winter, and may build a 2nd like the first. This go around will attempt to run a 5500 watt gasoline home-generator with the hydrogen cell for idle or higher, then add cells for full boogie. On demand boost not as interesting as emergency power!

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Old 06-23-2022, 09:05 AM
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Because the electric grid is not that great in parts of Michigan, I and others have looked into Generac type alternative power sources when the power goes away after a storm.

The better ones run on natural gas vs a propane tank.

With the right hook-ups the only charges you are paying for is the cost of the natural gas. Some web info says for the summer that might be slightly over $1.00 per day.
Therefore your gas usage to your generac usage to your electric vehicle might be quite a bit lower vs the gas pumps.
$5.00+ per gallon of fuel. Food for thought.

Tom V.

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Old 06-23-2022, 11:09 AM
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Being an industrial electrician, I know all to well the raw torque of electric motors. Especially at 100% slip speed. (0 rotor speed, or right at start, for those that don't know) Elec motors can produce upwards of 400% more than rated Tq at startup. My other hobby is RC planes and Heli's. I have many batteries, Lithium Polymer, that deliver HUGE amps for their size. But the life, and volatility of them is not there for mass public use. What lot's don't know about Lithium based batteries is when they combust, or internally short, they create their own oxygen. They will burn under water!. You can not put them out until the energy is all spent. Why, when they go, they go full send.

One of my main size packs I use are 25.2v fully charged, 3.3Ah. about 2.5"x2.5"x5" and I regularly pull over 100A out of them in flight. That's 3.3HP! Into a motor about 2" round by 2.5" long, spinning a 17" propeller at 10,000RPM for about 13FtLbs of thrust. in a 5.5Lb plane. All ads up to wild excitement

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Old 06-23-2022, 11:42 AM
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Zippy, thanks for the additional electrical knowledge.
My son has a couple of friends that do the remote control small
RC aircraft (similar to yours) that they use to take "spy in the sky" real estate
pictures for companies. One time the plane was used to help firefighters figure out
how to attack a plant fire. So big or small electric "vehicle" applications are useful.

Tom V.

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Old 06-23-2022, 12:53 PM
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E.J. Potter, I haven't heard that name in a long time. He was a wild man. I grew up with a friend that was into motorcycles, that is how I was aware of who he was. 8 stack injected 327 chevy mounted in a motorcycle frame with a dragster slick on he rear........



Dubbed the Michigan Madman, he earned that name, no one gave it to him.....LOL If i remember correctly, I think he used a kick stand at one time, and got the rear wheel spinning and knocked it off the kickstand, maybe NHRA stopped him from doing that for safety reasons. I never heard about the electric dragster, that's new to me.

The battery thing, last week was Ohio Sprintcar Speedweek, my wife and I usually try to attend as many races in person as possible, I been attending them since 2001 when I moved to Ohio. When gas reached near $5 a gallon I resigned myself to the fact we just wouldn't be able to attend in person this year. Nine races in 9 nights at 8 different tracks is a grueling thing to do. In 2017 we took our camper trailer, pulled behind my diesel dually, and followed them for 7 nights. 800 miles inside of Ohio, never crossing a state line.

Flo racing offers a streaming subscription that I could watch every race from my armchair this year for $12.50 a month, not a difficult decision when gas is $5 a gallon. They had a drone with a camera on it, and got some just fantastic aerial footage of the race tracks from afar, right into the back of the hauler as the crews were changing engines. Over the field as they were running pace laps before the races from above the cars. Now I know that that they can't run above the cars as the wind off of 24 racecars with a 5x5 wing on it would flip the drone over, but I was amazed at how long they were able to continuously film with the drone. I have no idea what kind of drone it was, but it could remain aloft for a really long time. There is my amazement of battery power, and life, in a compact lightweight aircraft.

Electric motor, and power, I worked for a few years for Crown lift trucks headquartered here in Ohio. I fully know how fast those electric lift trucks are, and how much they can move with 2 DC drive motors and one DC lift pump motor. The operate on 36 volts with a huge lead acid battery. Taylor Dunn personal vehicles also were something I've worked on. They're the little 2 person trucks maintenance crews and foremen ride around on in a huge plant setting, they'll pull wheelies..... from the torque generated. Electric vehicles have their place, but that place probably won't be in my driveway, not a huge fan because of the down time to charge, and the limited range.

The example I gave of following speed week, and camping at the track, would be impossible for me to do with a current electric car, or truck. I'll drive my old and decrepit cars, and trucks until they take away my license, or I can't afford fuel. All the proponents for E vehicles never take into account that 85 to 90% of the electric generated in this country is from fossil fuels. Plus, this comes from Elon Musk, the power grid we currently have, would take 30 years to bring it up to standards to support everyone driving E cars. Common sense says we can't afford it, and the electric infrastructure can't support it.

The rare earth elements needed are held by hostile interests, and the footprint of E cars is larger than fossil fueled vehicles, plus they are mining operations to get the rare earth deposits. I see little advantage to switching. Add to the fact, Pontiac never made one, and in my effort to only drive Pontiac cars, I have no choice. Oil is easier to find, and extract, than rare earth is, plus the US has oil deposits, we have little if any rare earth here.

Reflection is over.......

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Old 06-23-2022, 01:10 PM
Don 79 TA Don 79 TA is offline
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just imagine.... come up with a drop in replacement SBC/LS as electric power and wallah... you'll make some $$
well.... of course the power source too, like replace your fuel cell with this battery pack....
only if i were that smart to make something like this happen.....
Tom V.... some how i think this thought has crossed your mind at some point lol

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Old 06-23-2022, 02:23 PM
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The tech is not there for widespread electric vehicle use. The grid is not there for widespread electrical use.
Just in CA if they wanted us to go all electric we would need 1,500,000 Tesla charging stations.
One Tesla charging station at full power 24/7 uses enough electricity to power hundreds of average homes. At least that is what I hear.
In a electric car 100% of your heating and A/C comes right from your battery. That's a problem.
At Humboldt State University they pioneered hydrogen power cells. I think if the effort that is put into electric vehicles was put into hydrogen tech we would be better off.

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Old 06-23-2022, 02:50 PM
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[QUOTE=Sirrotica;6351728]E.J. Potter, I haven't heard that name in a long time. He was a wild man. I grew up with a friend that was into motorcycles, that is how I was aware of who he was. 8 stack injected 327 chevy mounted in a motorcycle frame with a dragster slick on he rear........



Dubbed the Michigan Madman, he earned that name, no one gave it to him.....LOL If i remember correctly, I think he used a kick stand at one time, and got the rear wheel spinning and knocked it off the kickstand, maybe NHRA stopped him from doing that for safety reasons. I never heard about the electric dragster, that's new to me.



Over the field as they were running pace laps before the races from above the cars. Now I know that that they can't run above the cars as the wind off of 24 racecars with a 5x5 wing on it would flip the drone over, but I was amazed at how long they were able to continuously film with the drone. I have no idea what kind of drone it was, but it could remain aloft for a really long time. There is my amazement of battery power, and life, in a compact lightweight aircraft.

Electric vehicles have their place, but that place probably won't be in my driveway, not a huge fan because of the down time to charge, and the limited range.

The example I gave of following speed week, and camping at the track, would be impossible for me to do with a current electric car, or truck. I'll drive my old and decrepit cars, and trucks until they take away my license, or I can't afford fuel. All the proponents for E vehicles never take into account that 85 to 90% of the electric generated in this country is from fossil fuels. Plus, this comes from Elon Musk, the power grid we currently have, would take 30 years to bring it up to standards to support everyone driving E cars. Common sense says we can't afford it, and the electric infrastructure can't support it.



You should take a drive up into the "Thumb" of Michigan some time and see the thousands of Edison Wind Electric Generators there. All of the poor farmers sold their land lease rights to the Edison Company and there are massive numbers of kilowatts being generated. Average daily wind speed is 15 mph. 30 years is no big deal, I spent 40 years converting people and cars/trucks to Boosted engines.

Tom V.

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Old 06-24-2022, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
So when people say performance is dead, I say you are just seeing another way to quickly run a quarter mile.
Thanks for the interesting article Tom. In addition to quarter mile time, the torque produced by electric motors does provide a pretty fun kick-in-the-pants acceleration on the street. I mean, Iím not buying one anytime soon, but for those who havenít tried it yet, give a Tesla a drive if you have the opportunity. Interesting experience, especially the eerie silence as you blast forward. The throttle response is fun (but without the roar/vibration of an IC engine, it does kind of feel like just a Six Flags ride).

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Old 06-24-2022, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don 79 TA View Post
just imagine.... come up with a drop in replacement SBC/LS as electric power and wallah... you'll make some $$
GM and Ford are already working on it. GM has one they call the 'E-Crate' that's been installed in a few cars but I don't think it's available to the public yet. https://www.chevrolet.com/performanc...lectrification Ford's is called the 'Eluminator Mach E Electric Motor, it's listed on the Ford Performance Parts website for sale. https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-9000-MACHE It appears you have to source your own battery and other components, so it's not quite plug and play yet. Also, there are a number of shops that have been converting classic cars using Tesla motors sourced from salvage cars, but going down that route is still beyond the reach of most back yard builders.

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Old 06-24-2022, 10:57 AM
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Even thought I drove one of GM's first Chevrolet Electric vehicles (VOLT), while I greatly value the experience, I am not quite ready to get rid of my F-150 ECOBOOST vehicle or my wife's Ecoboost Escapes. They both have performed very well for the size of the engine vs the size of the vehicle. I may never own a E-Boost (electric) Vehicle but might try to get a drive in a Ford E-Boost vehicle at some point.

Tom V.

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Old 06-24-2022, 11:01 AM
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Wind generation isn't green either. It actually takes more power, in fossil fuels, to make a wind turbine than it generates in it's life. From the diesel used in mining, the coal in forging the generator and metal structure, to the energy and chemicals required to make the carbon fiber blades. Which only last 25 years tops, if no bird strikes etc.

And same for the power grid up here in Canada. Our grid is much newer than most of the USA, and in better shape. BUT, even in BC, where we are all Hydro Dam generated power. We do not have the generation capabilities to even do 10% of the vehicles to Electric. Let alone the small grid in most communities. Overhead lines easy to replace and upgrade. BUT the underground ones to subdivisions etc, they all were sized ONLY for the homes built then. And each home service would have to be upgraded. Meaning digging up everywhere. Yes now, I have to size services and panels to accomodate a 70A home charger, no matter if owner wants it or not. They paying for the future provisions

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Old 06-24-2022, 12:10 PM
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Dan, I had this nice reply to your comments about sources of power to generate electricity
ready to be posted and the PY Board logged me off the site and lost 25 minutes of work.

Not going to do it again.

You are correct, everyone wants more power for their A/C units, etc.
Power has to come from somewhere, When the grid goes down my Generac generator kicks on,
powered by Natural Gas, (we have lots of Natural Gas coming from your country, thru pipelines),
and The NASCAR Race pops back up on the screen.

Nothing wrong with learning about new power sources, but E-Cars and Trucks are not the final answer.

Tom V.

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Old 06-24-2022, 01:31 PM
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The real 1/4 mile electric vehicle perfomance, at least for me, would be a winter (cabin heat on) road trip 700 miles away with a 7 person family. This will include fuel up time taken to be back on the road.

Better yet an electric semi or train bringing my parts over mountains for my gasoline engines. The whole electric vehicle thing is a money making scheme. Reduce your carbon footprint (lies) by junking a good gas lawn mower to get coal/biomass generated electric powered version. The ROI is not there for me or the environment.

Now they want to mine the ocean floor for the metals to help save the environment, and maybe make a bunch of money in the process? Currenty our electric utilities could support <10% electric vehicles. More coal/trees burning (carbon) and environental destruction via reservoirs will be needed. Either that or get rid of 90% of vehicles and stop selling electronic devices.

NRG is NRG and everyone is using way more now then ever but that fact never comes up. Following the dollar always leads to the truth...

I always enjoy your posts Tom!

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Old 06-24-2022, 03:07 PM
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99.9999999999999999999999% of any auto transaction, vehicle sales, parts, websites,
is there to make money for someone other than yourself.

The oceans are raising the sea levels daily.
One cubic foot of Water in a column 18,000 feet down can supply a lot of clean fuel for Hydrogen
(CLEAN) powered vehicles BUT we have not figured out how to store the hydrogen in any usable
container for more than 10 days.

You create a "tank" with 10 layers of sealing and the Hydrogen tank will still be empty in 10 days.
Been there, know all about that deal. See program I worked on for 7 years. Picture attached.
Also Hydrogen makes 1/2 the horsepower of gasoline for the same volume of fuel passed thru the engine.
That is why you need a BOOSTED ENGINE Engineer to get the acceptable power back.

Corn is a farmer's gift from the government so they will vote for them. The only ones making money are the
"Big Time" farmers who are hooked into the Politicians, the little farmers see squat, so where will their money
come from in a rocky area like the thumb of Michigan with poor soil? Wind Farms.

Everything is done for a reason. Be it Engineers or Farmers. LOL!

Tom V.
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Old 06-24-2022, 03:36 PM
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Yes engineers do things for reasons, money lol

Like I said NRG. Also, sea levels coming up are because of Fords; everyone has seen them run...

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Old 06-24-2022, 04:06 PM
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