#21  
Old 11-23-2017, 01:03 PM
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I vote sticky too, and yes, thank you Tom V! I've already sent folks to this thread!

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  #22  
Old 11-24-2017, 09:47 AM
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Today we will talk about misinformation on Power Valves (specifically Holley Power Valves).

https://www.racingjunk.com/news/2015...ey-carburetor/

I have no clue who Mr Bolig is, really do not care, but he writes guest articles for "racing junk". Apparently he has written a whole series of Guest Column articles for that website. Glad he wants to write articles for people on subjects but the on the carb article on Power Valves he seems a bit confused.

I will try to post the different statements from the article and my comments to the info. You can take my comments for what they are worth to you.

So here we have the article:

QUOTE "When it comes to tuning a Holley carburetor the power valve has always seemed a mystery to many. But, once you know how power-valves work, it’s easy to select, troubleshoot, and install the right one for your application.

1) The power is a vacuum-operated fuel valve that is designed to enrich the fuel flow to the engine under varied vacuum conditions. It is located in the metering block, and opens at a set vacuum that is determined by the spring it contains. Depending on the spring in the power valve, this can occur at varying engine rpm*and directs extra fuel into the carburetor’s main power circuit. The valve itself is a small rubber diaphragm with a small coil spring. When opened, it allows fuel to flow through the calibrated opening in the metering block (power valve channel restrictor). This restrictor determines the amount of additional fuel delivered to the engine.

2) To find out which power valve your high-performance engine needs, you first need to know the vacuum characteristics of your engine.

3) Begin by hooking a vacuum gauge to an intake manifold-vacuum port. Warm up the engine and note the vacuum reading at idle. Automatic transmission equipped vehicles need to be in the Drive position for this test. Once you have a proper reading, divide the vacuum reading number in half. The divided number will determine the correct power valve that you need.

4) Engine vacuum is what actually operates a Holley power valve. The spring that is part of the power valve is the resistance to the diaphragm that only allows it to open at a certain vacuum reading. Spring pressure is what changes the actual operating range of the power valve.

5) As an example, a vacuum reading at idle of 13-inches needs to be divided by two, which results in a number of 6.5. Therefore, you should have a number 65 Holley power valve installed in the carburetor. If your divided number falls on an even number, you should select he next lowest power valve number. For example, a vacuum reading of 8-inches, divided by two and you come up with a number of four. In this case, you would use a 35 power valve.

6) To know which power valve you have, all you need to do is look at it. Each power valve is stamped with a number that indicates the correct vacuum opening point. For example, a power valve with the number 65 stamped on it*will open at 6.5 inches of engine vacuum.

7) Many racers will instinctively remove the power valve and install a plug in its place. This is often done on hardcore race cars that don’t see a lot of street duty. Basically, the power valve is designed to help an engine to deliver a little better gas mileage, and with a race car, fuel mileage is not typically a priority.

8) However, if you decide to remove the power valve, then bigger main jets must be installed. Since the power valve is for fuel enrichment, if it is missing, the engine needs to get the extra, required fuel from somewhere. So, If you decide to do away with the power valve, you must increase the main jet sizes considerably (typically 6 – 10 jet sizes).

9) Knowing what power valve you have is as easy as reading numbers. The face of this power valve has the numbers 6 and 5 on it. That means that this valve opens at 6.5 inches of vacuum.

10) Stock engines typically have a high vacuum reading (10-18 inches at idle) and the Holley power valves with higher readings like 6.5 to 10.5 will work correctly. But, add a long duration non-stock camshaft or other performance related parts, you will soon find out that a stock-rated power valve is not your friend.

11) This is because engine manifold vacuum is usually lowered with these performance parts, and this can cause the power valve to always be open, even at part throttle, leading to an overly rich air/fuel mixture. Holley makes performance style “standard” flow or a high flow power valve, which has a larger opening. If at all possible, avoid any “two-stage” power valve. These are designed more for economy minded users rather than performance enthusiasts.

12) Finally, most of the popular Holley carburetors incorporate a power valve blow-out protection system. This is a special check valve that is located in the base plate, expressly for this purpose. This check valve is designed to be normally open but will quickly close off the internal vacuum passage when a backfire occurs. Once closed, the check valve interrupts the pressure wave caused by the backfire, thus protecting the power valve.

13) If you have a carburetor older than 1992 (or you have experienced an extreme backfire) and expect a blown power valve, use this simple test.*TEST: At idle, turn your idle mixture screws (found on the side of the metering block) all the way in. If your engine dies the power valve is not blown."

14) In a race-only application, some will remove the power valve from the carburetor, and install plugs. If the engine is only ever run at wide-open throttle, this is not a problem, but any street driving*and your fuel economy will take a huge hit. Also, if you plug the power valve hole, you will need to increase your main jets by roughly 6-10 jet sizes." OUOTE

So first off I will let you read the info and then I will discuss the Info and misinformation in this article. I have labeled the 14 statements for easy tracking and discussion.

Tom V.
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 11-24-2017 at 09:58 AM.
  #23  
Old 11-24-2017, 05:44 PM
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14) Hate it when people say "remove the Power Valves in a "Race application."
There are so many classes in racing that a generic statement like that usually screws up the guys who Bracket Race and need to leave the line cleanly and have the proper Air/Fuel Ratio throughout the entire run.
You need to determine your specific racing situation and tune all of the circuits for best performance vs "Block both of the Power Valves" as a generic statement.
The Power Valves are only 'the switch'(s) in the carburetor.
The Power Valve Channel Restrictions control the actual fuel flow when the Power Valves are open.
The Power Valve Channel restrictions work from the time that the Power Valve first opens until there is sufficient vacuum in the engine to close the Power Valves.
Also a higher number Power Valve 'leads the Duck" before the Duck and the "Shot" from the shotgun actually get together.
You will always "miss the Duck" if you calibrate for the exact spot where you "see the duck".

The gentleman recommended a idle vacuum number divided by 2 and if on an 'even number' GO LOWER on the Power Valve number.
This way you will be even farther "behind the duck" when you need to be "in front of the Duck".
Holley Engineers used to say: Highest Vacuum Number (because the vacuum dances around with a bumpy camshaft and then divide by 2 and ADD .5 to the number. So 12" of vacuum /2 = 6 PLUS .5 so the correct valve would be a 6.5" valve not a 5.5" Power Valve.
That whole number difference is the difference in smooth performance that discourages racers so they take the valves out completely trying to fix the LEAN MISS.

So we have covered the actual Power Valve switching.

Now the Power Valve Channel Restrictions are controlling added fuel BEFORE the Main Jets really come on line.
It takes more signal to move a big glob of fuel thru a Main Jet quickly vs a smaller amount of fuel thru the Main Jet opening and then on to the Primary Metering Block Power Valve Channel Restrictions.
It should go Idle Circuit, Transition Circuit, Power Valve Channel Restrictions for moderate load, then Main Jets and Power Valve Channel Restrictions Together for WOT. The Booster is working once the main circuit comes on line but the amount of fuel thru the booster is best controlled by Both Circuits working together.

More on this in another post later

Tom V.

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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 11-24-2017 at 05:51 PM.
  #24  
Old 11-24-2017, 09:14 PM
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Now featured at the top of the Tech Thread Archive thread here in the Pontiac Street forum.

  #25  
Old 11-24-2017, 10:20 PM
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Thank You very much b-man.

Tom V.

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  #26  
Old 11-24-2017, 10:38 PM
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So now we talk about #12 & #13

12 & 13) "If you have a carburetor older than 1992 (or you have experienced an extreme backfire) and expect a blown power valve, use this simple test.*TEST: At idle, turn your idle mixture screws (found on the side of the metering block) all the way in. If your engine dies the power valve is not blown."

As was mentioned in a earlier post, you can take the jets completely out of the metering block and the idle will not change because the Main Jet Orifice is much larger in area vs the Idle Feed Restriction which supplies fuel to the Idle Circuit.

So turning in the idle mixture screws all of the way does nothing to prove whether the Power Valve is damaged (Blown) or not.
Another Old Wife's tale that will live forever.

Holley added the tiny spring and ball to the base plate, as the story was going around that if you have a Holley carb, and the Power Valve blows, the Power Valve will allow the engine to syphon fuel from the carb bowl and the fuel will then hydra-lock the engine and damage parts.

Holley Engineers knew that this was Bull**** BUT in order to sell carbs they put in a "anti-backfire" check valve system in the carburetor throttle baseplate.

I have run Holley carbs for over 50 years and have NEVER HAD a single occurrence of a Blown Power Valve.

So a second line item in the article is suspect.

Tom V.

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  #27  
Old 11-24-2017, 11:53 PM
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Item 7) Many racers will instinctively remove the power valve and install a plug in its place. This is often done on hardcore race cars that don’t see a lot of street duty. Basically, the power valve is designed to help an engine to deliver a little better gas mileage, and with a race car, fuel mileage is not typically a priority."

Last one tonight

What is instinctively? Most car guys do something because someone else gave them some information, be it good info or bad info.
If a Racer says to another racer, "you are not a 'Real Racer' unless your carb has Power Valve Blocks, 'because my race car has "Power Valve blocks". Same deal for a "Hard Core" Racer vs a Normal Racer. I guess you are hard core if you do a lot of stupid chit without knowing what you are really doing. Engine idles at 1200/1300 rpm, rich as can be, have to rev it up over and over to clean that 'bad boy' out.
That is what a race car engine is supposed to be like according to some.

A Power Valve in reality is just another fine tuning device on a carburetor to make each mode of operation closer to the ideal air/fuel vs power curve.

So screw the air/fuel meter and the different circuits on a well designed carburetor (be it from Holley, or Rochester, or Carter originally).
Make that sucker a On-off switch where the only way it will run is at 6000-7000 rpm minimum and most of the time it waters your eyes to be near the car. Because that is what a "hard core" race car engine is supposed to run like.

People actually read this crap.

Tom V.

ps, Many times at the race track the Holley Tech guy put the carb back close to a stock calibration and told the guy, Go make a pass
and if it runs good, leave it alone.

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  #28  
Old 11-25-2017, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Item 7) Many racers will instinctively remove the power valve and install a plug in its place. This is often done on hardcore race cars that donít see a lot of street duty. Basically, the power valve is designed to help an engine to deliver a little better gas mileage, and with a race car, fuel mileage is not typically a priority."

Last one tonight

What is instinctively? Most car guys do something because someone else gave them some information, be it good info or bad info.
If a Racer says to another racer, "you are not a 'Real Racer' unless your carb has Power Valve Blocks, 'because my race car has "Power Valve blocks". Same deal for a "Hard Core" Racer vs a Normal Racer. I guess you are hard core if you do a lot of stupid chit without knowing what you are really doing. Engine idles at 1200/1300 rpm, rich as can be, have to rev it up over and over to clean that 'bad boy' out.
That is what a race car engine is supposed to be like according to some.

A Power Valve in reality is just another fine tuning device on a carburetor to make each mode of operation closer to the ideal air/fuel vs power curve.

So screw the air/fuel meter and the different circuits on a well designed carburetor (be it from Holley, or Rochester, or Carter originally).
Make that sucker a On-off switch where the only way it will run is at 6000-7000 rpm minimum and most of the time it waters your eyes to be near the car. Because that is what a "hard core" race car engine is supposed to run like.

People actually read this crap.

Tom V.

ps, Many times at the race track the Holley Tech guy put the carb back close to a stock calibration and told the guy, Go make a pass
and if it runs good, leave it alone.
Tom I agree with you 100%! When I was running my super gas , I got talked into removing the power valves. It will make your car run so much better! It did nothing for on track performance! But driving around the pits and the return road, was a different story. It had a huge flat spot ! I hated the way it drove. I ran it two weekends like that before I put the power valves back in.

  #29  
Old 11-25-2017, 08:29 AM
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Good Morning, So previously I gave you an example of a writer of Holley information who needed a little work with the facts on what he was writing.

So now I will provide a link to a website with only a couple of HOLLEY CARBURETOR TIPS but the tips are well written and give very good information on the subject that they are covering. I have no affiliation with these people, have never met the people, just ran across the info one day doing a search.
So here is the link:

http://www.vintagemusclecarparts.com...s/techsection/

In the Tech Section they have three tabs for Holley Information:
HOLLEY TUNING
FUEL FILTER SERVICE (Covers the internal fuel filter inside a OEM style Holley Fuel Bowl)
Needle and Seat Inspection, Adjustment, etc.

Way too many good pictures (and all are copyrighted) so you will just have to go to the website and read the info and look at the very good pictures on how to do the PROPER ADJUSTMENTS ON THE HOLLEY CARB.

Some nice work here.

Tom V.

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  #30  
Old 11-25-2017, 10:00 AM
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Appreciate the ammo, let the feathers fly !

Your knowledge and explanation of the system allows me comprehension, and unlike the Duck, is bulletproof.

I understand there should be a courtship between the PVCR and Main Jets via a correct Power Valve.

I am not a technical guy, like that need be said, an for me a analogy works best at times so here is mine.

Allow me to take for example the Jet as a attractive female, and myself being the Fuel.

In my best James Dean, I hang around doing nothing for the exception of a pose. (Idle Circuit Mode)

I nonchalantly swagger toward her with the illusion of no interest, (Transition Circuit).

Check my smooth in the mirror, (vacuum opening point) proceed to swagger.

(PVCR Moderate Load) check my pecks an throw a "Hey Baby" (WOT)!

Correctly done and sequence completed, an acceptable result should be attainable.


Looks like another movie day, Much Thanks Tom!
Frank

PS: Never considered myself a Hollier Than Thou guy, or a James Dean type, good thing!

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  #31  
Old 11-25-2017, 02:00 PM
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Everything Tom shared in this thread plus selected downloads from the links he provided are going into a binder which will reside on my carburetor reference shelves.

Thanks Tom

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Old 11-25-2017, 03:33 PM
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Thanks Tom..your advice has helped me over the years.

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Old 11-25-2017, 06:05 PM
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Thanks very much, I will continue the thread tomorrow.

Tom V.

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  #34  
Old 11-26-2017, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Thanks very much, I will continue the thread tomorrow.

Tom V.
My sincere apologies for the excessive horse play, my intentions are not to detract from this most valuable, desirable, informative and I might add very appreciable thread.

Some post threads with a question and the illusion they have a answer, you post with the answer!

Looking forward, as you resume, and again much thanks Tom.



Frank

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Last edited by 4zpeed; 11-26-2017 at 06:43 PM.
  #35  
Old 11-26-2017, 05:55 PM
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Please, by all means, do that.

I cannot seem to get enough readable material to look at.

Good, specific, accurate and precise material.

Thanks Tom for spending the time poking on that keyboard!!

  #36  
Old 11-26-2017, 07:50 PM
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Good Evening, Hope everyone had a Great Thanksgiving Holiday.

Tonight I want to talk a little bit about the Holley Accelerator Pump and how to set it Tom's way vs the video (from Holley) that I have attached here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Nx5HEzvlY

Watch the Holley Video first then we can discuss my way vs the guy who was doing the video for Holley.

Just a couple of comments first.

I see NO benefit to rapping the accelerator many times to determine if the the accelerator pump is working properly. Just wasting gas after you determine that the pump is delivering the pump shoot to the shooter. Looks cool on the video but gives people the idea that it is necessary and it is not.

But look at the video and then I will discuss this subject further tomorrow.

Tom V.

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Old 11-26-2017, 07:57 PM
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I can't watch it, "An error occurred. Please try again later."

Edit: Ok perhaps I need a You Tube account, got my son here, worked on his phone.


Thanks,
Frank

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Last edited by 4zpeed; 11-26-2017 at 08:30 PM.
  #38  
Old 11-26-2017, 07:59 PM
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Just clicked on the link here and it worked fine for me.

Tom V.

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  #39  
Old 11-27-2017, 09:47 AM
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Clicked the link this morning.
Video comes up with "MR CARB TUNES GARAGE"
Sorry that it is not working for you.

Overall the info is pretty good. The CONSTANT "working the throttle lever' drives me crazy though in the video.

The assumption when you buy the "Pump Shooter Kit" is that you will be 'totally in the dark' on what your pump shooter size should be. If you bought the right carb for the application the Pump Shooter size should be close to stock.
Now if you are building a bunch of carbs for different people then you will probably use a few more Pump Shooter sizes. Holley wants to sell Carb Jet kits and Pump Shooter kits.

Another assumption is that the Accelerator Pump Linkage (clearance) was set wrong by the factory or the individual before you who owned the carb.

So here is My thoughts on the subject:

1) Remove the carb and make sure that the Throttle Blades are in the correct spot on the Primary side of the carb (Transfer Slot Position)
Make sure that the carb float settings are correct. Do those things first.
Set the engine idle at the proper rpm for your application using the secondary throttle blade position or by drilling holes in the carb blades.
(Drilled Holes in the blades may not be necessary unless the engine is a large engine.)

Make sure the engine is warmed up to operating temperature and the Choke Blade is open fully.
So once you have the carb idling correctly, don't touch the Throttle Speed Screw on the Primary side of the carb.
The assumption is that the Mixture Screws are adjusted properly and now you are ready for some other testing.

In the video, they show adjusting the Accelerator Pump clearances. You can easily do that step on the bench when you are checking out the other systems on the carb.

Remove any air gap between the Accelerator Pump Cam and the Accelerator Pump Lever when the blades are in the Idle Position on the Primary side. You turn the spring retainer and lengthen the distance until the clearance is barely removed. Then you open the throttles completely and you should still be able to push the pump diaphragm a bit more and see clearance on the Accelerator Pump lever.
What you are doing here is making sure that the Accelerator Pump Diaphragm always have some extra movement room. Otherwise you bend carb parts. Liquids for the most part are incompressible.

The "Pump Shooter Sizing" Check is best done on the road, not by blipping the throttle 100 times.
You are checking for instant response on "light Tip-Ins" of the throttle on the Primary side for mostly street applications.

Then you can do a few Short Wide Open Throttle tests and see if the engine accelerates smoothly in that mode without a hesitation. You are checking Acceleration Pump Function here.

In both cases, you should always have a bit of Accelerator Pump Diaphragm Clearance when the Carb is at WOT on the Throttle Blades.

I will discuss Pump Shooters Tomorrow.

Tom V.

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  #40  
Old 11-27-2017, 12:25 PM
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"Overall the info is pretty good. The CONSTANT "working the throttle lever' drives me crazy though in the video."

X2..

Tom can I add something? Often I see guys adjusting their idle using the primary blades and not readjusting the pump arm clearance. Any change on front blade position will affect the pump arm clearance..even a small change.

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