[PONTIAC DUDE]

Things that make you go Hummmmmmmm!!!!!!
Just got my New Eagle Distributor Catalog and pricing sheets (March 2001). They list a bunch of new, along with the old crankshafts available on the market, Non of which are the Pontiac cranks.
Food for thought:
All Small Block Chevy Cast Steel Cranks sell for $289.00 Racer net....
The 454 crank sells for 379.00 Racer net.
The 173 Chevy V-6 crank sells for $219.00 Racer net.
The Ford 302 crank sells for $349.00 Racer net.
The 460 Ford crank sells for $399.00 Racer net.
Now the Clincher....... The Pontiac crank is not listed in the EAGLE catalog and is "only" available from Butler Performance (I called Eagle).......Butler's Price $499.00. I guess that's List or is it Racer net????????

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NOS is like American Express.....You don't leave home without it.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdude428

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Things that make you go Hummmmmmmm!!!!!!
Just got my New Eagle Distributor Catalog and pricing sheets (March 2001). They list a bunch of new, along with the old crankshafts available on the market, Non of which are the Pontiac cranks.
Food for thought:
All Small Block Chevy Cast Steel Cranks sell for $289.00 Racer net....
The 454 crank sells for 379.00 Racer net.
The 173 Chevy V-6 crank sells for $219.00 Racer net.
The Ford 302 crank sells for $349.00 Racer net.
The 460 Ford crank sells for $399.00 Racer net.
Now the Clincher....... The Pontiac crank is not listed in the EAGLE catalog and is "only" available from Butler Performance (I called Eagle).......Butler's Price $499.00. I guess that's List or is it Racer net????????

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NOS is like American Express.....You don't leave home without it.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdude428

[Wade Congdon]

JBP put up the money so he gets the exclusive and the spoils. If Eagle had the foresight they could have made the cranks themselves and sold to their regular distributors. If the question is is JBP overcharging for these cranks, only he will know because he is the only distributor. My guess is that the cost is higher right from Eagle, smaller runs = higher costs. If the volume was high they would have done it themselves. My applause to those who risk their investment cash on a limited market.

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Wade Congdon - BOP Engineering
www.bopengineering.com
"If you can turn left you're going too slow"

[PONTIAC DUDE]

I feel the "Limited Market" is no more. Compared to what? Delorans??? I agree.....to a certain respect that he pushed the move for aftermarket cranks. This is a "Replacement" type deal.... to an extent. Have you seen the contingent of Pontiac people out there. You can add the Olds, Buick V-8, Cad, and AMC together and wouldn't come close to the #'s of Pontiac people in the market today. Period. I'm not praising nor condoning the price he's charging. Just showing you what EAGLE is selling all their other Cast Steel cranks for. It goes along the lines of what Edelbrock is selling their Pontiac head for. There's more market for the Pontiac head then the Ford FE and Olds, etc, however Edelbrock is charging more for the Pontiac head then 3/4's of their other lines of less demand. Explain that to me. I missed something in 5th grade on this set-up... Same with the cranks. the Pontiac crank is now the most expensive "CAST STEEL" out there buy $100.00. So throw that supply and demand deal out the freakin window!!!! Wade, explain this investment/profit margin, minority market thing to me? So the 173 Chevy V-6 Crank is in more demand and they will sell more of them then the 455 stock replacement crank, thus the substantially lower price???? Pontiacs have really taken and we are not talking a new design or some trick RACE piece, that someone doesn't have to have. I applaud there investment and drive to accomplish something that most of us don't have the time or investment to do.
However. When does the price difference stop? I know, I know. Don't buy it if you wanna bitch. But there are a lot of Pontiac people out there that need replacement cranks and other items out there. Oh well, I said my piece. I was just wondering the justification of a 25% higher price then List on the already available cranks out there of other brands. Including the 460 Ford......
Another case in point. The IA block is not that pricey, if you consider what you have to do to the Factory Bowtie block to achieve the degree of machine work and race finish delivery as the IA block. Apple's to Apple's. And it's a high end only piece!!! I'm done. LOL.

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NOS is like American Express.....You don't leave home without it.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdude428

[Wade Congdon]

Dude,

I can't speak for the E-head. As far as Eagle goes, the V-6 crank is probably cheaper to produce, however I wonder if anyone put up money for that project? I guess my point was that if Eagle invests in a new product, their investment is substantially less than if a distributor like JBP does, and I know the investment had a lot of zeros. I somewhat agree with you on the Pontiac market becoming stronger, so why wasn't eagle hot to produce the crank on their own? They already have a pulse on it with their rods. When does the price difference stop? Good question, I guess it depends on the reason for it. If it's a money grab then it stinks, on the other side I know from first hand experience that in some cases it is a matter of small quantity. So the question really becomes do you want the pieces even at a higher price? problem is if no one buys them, then the next guy says no way am I making that part for Pontiacs. I know your heart is in the right place and were lucky to have an advocate like you on our side. It's a tough spot, I guess your comment "Things that make you go Hummmmmmmm!!!!!!" may be accurate in more ways than one!

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Wade Congdon - BOP Engineering
www.bopengineering.com
"If you can turn left you're going too slow"

[Gach]

So Dude, what your saying is the only Pontiac vender you can buy these new cranks from is JBP. They did a real good job of hyping the availability of the new cranks, it was my under standing that they would be available from all the Pontiac venders. I have to laugh, old JBP suck you guys right in, got you all to hype these new cranks, then cut you all off ( smart business man ) I'm just
wondering if he use Vaseline, with those class chips....LOL

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Thanks Wade for seeing my point as to Hummmmmmmm. Nothing against Jim or his organization, just making a point on pricing and dealing straight from Eagle for years along with buying from warehouses that deal with Eagle. Then seeing an "AD", advertising the "Eagle" crank. Calling and being told that it's strictly a JBP product. Then the price. Just a little discerning, that's all. Later. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
BTW: Those prices I posted previously weren't my cost prices, those are the over the counter prices. Racer net, so to speak. Now take my pricing that they sell to me for, then the racer net for a profit margin and then you see and even more escalated pricing structure. Goes back to (as you said)how soon you want to achieve a Zero investment return on your investment before staring to make a profit and what you think the "Market" will bear!!!! Pontiac Dude, the Ralph Nader for Pontiacs, LOL.
Point/Counterpoint. Hahahahahaha.
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NOS is like American Express.....You don't leave home without it.
http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdude428

[This message has been edited by PONTIAC DUDE (edited 02-27-2001).]

[Wade Congdon]

Gach,

They are available from the major Pontiac vendors, they just have to go through JBP first. I don't know the details, but I know a wholesale program exists. Smart business man, you bet! Willing to stick his neck out, you bet! Guy we want in our hobby, You bet! Pontiac only vendors that go under in a few years do none of us any good in the long run.

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Wade Congdon - BOP Engineering
www.bopengineering.com
"If you can turn left you're going too slow"

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

Hey dudes,
He has some sort of dealers plan going alright! He sells them for $499. I called wanted to buy 20. He said $399!! $399 PLUS shipping!!! I hope you realize once they are shipped you loose half your profit!
Jim is a nice guy. But when I found out about the Eagle cranks from Eagle. He was NEVER mentioned. Then when I called him(Jim) he told me the NEW cranks were NOT being made by Eagle?? Why did he tell me that.
Unfortunately the ONLY person who will make money is Butler. Nothing against Butler. But I believe that is the way he wants it! Lets face it, he is the big guy. He who has the gold rules!
This brings up another thing. I am VERY tight with Milodon. Should I buy up all the NEW windage trays from them? Make everyone come to me! See I an buy the whole run if I want. But I don't know? But if I did I could STROKE people whatever I wanted!
Get what I am getting at! Is that right?
Be Cool,
Ace

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ACE-P.P.R.

[Scott Misus]

Sure it's right, Ken. It's called "business" as opposed to "charity." Although Jim may have pissed off a few people in the process, at least he had the huevos to get the deal done. He's not in business solely for the honor and glory of building fast Pontiacs. Same goes for Dick and for Wade and Mark.

If you approached Milodon with $40,000 to be their exclusive dealer of windage trays, I'm sure they'd listen. Absent the 40 grand, they'd just shake their heads and say "I've heard it all before.."

You wouldn't lose any money on shipping if you charged the end user for having his crank shipped to you for use in his motor project. So, that way, it won't eat into your $100 profit. Pretty good markup for making a phone call, I'd say.

As far as Jim saying that his cranks were NOT Eagles, perhaps he was trying to steer you away from horning in on HIS action. The fact remains that Jim got there first with his money, so he got the deal. I tried to become the sole distributor of TH400 rinkazink modulators, but both ATI and TCI wanted a $50,000 committment. So, I went directly to GM's Hydramatic Division. The price was more attractive AND they own the patent.

If you're paying $399, it would be a good bet that Jim is paying $199. Not a bad price for a piece of Chinese steel. Let's just hope it's of better quality than the Chinese tools and bench vises that I've seen.

But still, a Chinese crank reminds me of Krusty the Clown's "Me So Solly" routine...

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"The goggles....they do NOTHING!!"---Rainier Wolfcastle

[This message has been edited by Scott Misus (edited 02-27-2001).]

[Steve C.]

I got one the other day from JBP and it came with the Eagle logo right on the box.

[Wade Congdon]

"He's not in business solely for the honor and glory of building fast Pontiacs. Same goes for Dick and for Wade and Mark"

Scott, my wife would disagree with you!

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Wade Congdon - BOP Engineering
www.bopengineering.com
"If you can turn left you're going too slow"

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Scott, your payng $499.00 from JBP. The highest priced Eagle "Cast Steel" Crank made is $399.00,,,,,,,,,from Eagle. Racer Net.
I was just stating facts.
#1 Only JBP can sell a Eagle made cast steel Pontiac stock type crank.
#2 He can ask $100.00 more then Eagle does for their highest priced crank, The Ford 460.
#3 Now if I could buy just 2 for stock @$399, then I wouldn't mind only making a $50 profit, just to keep on hand "NEW" inventory.
#4 Inquired a few times, over the years, on possible trade discount on their exclusive lines, nothing heard back.
#5 Been in business since 1974, In Fla since 1976, Pay C.O.D. Cash, No company check accepted, treated like John Q. Public!!!!

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NOS is like American Express.....You don't leave home without it.


[This message has been edited by PONTIAC DUDE (edited 02-27-2001).]

[Ken K]

Butler will be sitting on those Chevy rod journal cranks for such a long time that by the time he gets rid of them they will be ready to hatch.

[This message has been edited by Ken K (edited 02-27-2001).]

[llucas]

Whine, Whine, Snivel, Whine.

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

Don't take what Scott said to seriously. He basically said it to get to me. Read between the lines! He obviously has a problem with me! Tahat's ok. Everyone has a right to his opinion. No matter how pertinent or ignorant.
Be Cool,
Ken
PS. I doubt Milodon will laugh at me considering I am helping them design it! But hey! You probably have better conections with them than I do. ........eh

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ACE-P.P.R.

[Gach]

Ken B, A few years back Jim did just that bought up all the cam blanks, for roller cams, guys had to wait 3-4 months, from other venders, because Butler had all the cam blanks, and that's why all his cams say regound on them. Yeah he had the huevos to get the deal done. BUT he used all the
Pontiac Venders to do it, with out them, and all their up front orders, it probably wouldn't of happen, it's easy to put up the bucks, when you have up front orders.I'm willing to bet you" had they known about this before hand, there would have been very little hype. They were hyping this crank deal up like it was the greatest thing sense slice bread. Just as he lied to Ken B, he also lied to everyone else, I don't blame everyone for being piss off. To me it just shows what a snake he is, he should change is logo to SW (slick Willie, one of the good old boys). But here's that part the really cracks me up, no one has even question the quality. ( of a product that comes from a very questionable company, ) or done any testing, guess who's going to be the guinea pigs.

[Ken -Ace- Brewer]

Have to buy 10 to get the $399 deal. Buisness! I guess that's the nature of the beast!
Be Cool,
Ace

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ACE-P.P.R.

[Scott Misus]

Ken:

I was being very serious and was in no way trying to get to you. I thought I was being concise and to the point. Butler got the deal, and you didn't. And neither did anybody else. Perhaps next time I can type a little slower for you.

It would appear, Ken, that the only time you post here anymore is to badmouth your competitors. The last time was to slam Bruce, and this time is to whine about Butler and how badly you're getting effed and to rally the troops against him.

Perhaps a remedial "Salesmanship 101" course is in your future. Hint: Thou shalt not slam your competitor.

And referring to casual observers as "ignorant" isn't winning you any customers, either.

Naive is the person who thinks his competitors are in business to help him.

I'm sure you have better connections with Milodon than I do, especially since you're in the business. Best of luck to you in getting an exclusive on any part that you help design. I merely made the comment that, absent any proven volume, I felt it a rather difficult task to achieve.

But, hey. Since you're working so closely with them, maybe they'll cut you a deal. Then you could pull a "Butler" and be the exclusive dealer.

Then, we'll watch Fulper and Butler drop to a new low and begin slamming YOU on these boards.

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"The goggles....they do NOTHING!!"---Rainier Wolfcastle

[Big Injun]

The same factory that has cast these cranks casts cranks for Mercedes. The material specs are the same. Quality??????

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Dave "Big Injun" Anderson
www.PontiacDragDays.com
www.PontiacEnthusiast.com