#61  
Old 09-03-2022, 05:18 PM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

FormulaJones - Thank you for a detailed response, much appreciated! Would be interested in more details on the mods required for the Chevelle pan, probably more than this thread should have. (Maybe PM me)

Cold air, that too is a very good point, and guess with EFI, it would have less effect/improvement, but cold air is still an improvement. IAT readings fatten it up with colder air, hence, more power. (theoretically)

I agree, functional on the 68 in discussion would be a cool/wow factor, and at a lower power build makes much more sense. Well, if you consider 525-600 a 'lower power' that is!

On the #5 clearance, wasn't the factory spec bigger for #5 too? I thought for some reason it was like .0003-.0005 more than the rest, but I honestly can't recall specifically. (Wish I wasn't living out of boxes right now)


.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #62  
Old 09-03-2022, 09:31 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
FormulaJones - Thank you for a detailed response, much appreciated! Would be interested in more details on the mods required for the Chevelle pan, probably more than this thread should have. (Maybe PM me)

Cold air, that too is a very good point, and guess with EFI, it would have less effect/improvement, but cold air is still an improvement. IAT readings fatten it up with colder air, hence, more power. (theoretically)

I agree, functional on the 68 in discussion would be a cool/wow factor, and at a lower power build makes much more sense. Well, if you consider 525-600 a 'lower power' that is!

On the #5 clearance, wasn't the factory spec bigger for #5 too? I thought for some reason it was like .0003-.0005 more than the rest, but I honestly can't recall specifically. (Wish I wasn't living out of boxes right now)


.
You are correct, at least the one old book I grabbed does have the #5 main with slightly larger "range" for oil clearance. I don't know if all books or more recent books are like that.

I'll send you a pm.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #63  
Old 09-04-2022, 01:07 AM
Verdoro 68's Avatar
Verdoro 68 Verdoro 68 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Clayton, CA
Posts: 2,806
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I'm still of the mindset that the OP's setup would look killer with the 68 system intact and functional. He likes period correct making the car appear as if he would have built it in 69-70 using over the counter OEM performance parts, as he mentioned in an earlier post, and to me the 68 RA pan setup is at the top of that list.
Twist my arm The main thing holding me up from adding the ram air gear is that I don't want to cut the hood. That said, I did punch a 4" hole in it for a hood tach and my scoops are already open so...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
On the #5 clearance, wasn't the factory spec bigger for #5 too? I thought for some reason it was like .0003-.0005 more than the rest, but I honestly can't recall specifically. (Wish I wasn't living out of boxes right now).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
You are correct, at least the one old book I grabbed does have the #5 main with slightly larger "range" for oil clearance. I don't know if all books or more recent books are like that.
Interesting - which book are you looking at? The '68 service manual only shows .0002-.0020 for all main bearings. (.0002!!??)I looked in an old Chilton's in addition to Rocky Rotella's books and they all listed a uniform range for all mains. I tried calling Butler today for advice, but they're closed for the holiday.



While I figure out the bearing clearance situation, I picked up on a few other things. First, I primed and painted the block, new valley pan, new Canton pan and repro front cover. A while back I found a snafu on Amazon's site and got a 6 pack of Pontiac Duplicolor 1616 for $15. Came in handy today.



Next, I checked the crank endplay. I rigged up a dial indicator from my cam degree kit, I hope that's kosher. I couldn't get it on the crank snout, so I set it up against the first counterweight. Looks like I'm at .007 which is in the acceptable range. I also test fit the factory windage tray with spacers to make sure it's going to clear the crank (it will, no problem).



Finally, I got familiar with the Total Seal ring pack and set up the ring filer. The instructions say to go for .012-.022 for my bore size. I looked through some old threads and it seems like the consensus is .016-.018 on the first ring and .020-.022 on the second, although Cliff mentioned he does .018 on both. I have the first one at .017 right now. Taking this first one slow and being very careful to ensure I'm filing square and not taking too much off.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4719.jpg
Views:	519
Size:	78.0 KB
ID:	597800   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4717.jpg
Views:	531
Size:	50.7 KB
ID:	597801   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4716.jpg
Views:	517
Size:	61.7 KB
ID:	597802   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4720.jpg
Views:	519
Size:	64.1 KB
ID:	597803  

__________________
Ken
'68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - 3.55 posi (build thread | walk around)
'95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics)
  #64  
Old 09-04-2022, 06:52 AM
PunchT37's Avatar
PunchT37 PunchT37 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 3,242
Default

I have a 1971 GM service manual and a 1976 Motor manual. Both show #5 clearance the same as the rest.

  #65  
Old 09-04-2022, 07:59 PM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

Just to say, on the ring gaps, I always cut mine to include a street/strip N2O shot, no harm in doing so, even at large gaps that 'standard', you won't have any additional or measurable blow by. Your call on that. IMO, better safe than sorry. Too little can cause way more damage.

I too believe the 2nd ring gap should be a touch larger, there again, your call.

.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #66  
Old 09-04-2022, 08:01 PM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

I use a stone to treat/deburr all edges on the ring ends too.

It's ok if the rings vary slightly, .001-.003 more on any rings is not going to cause problems. Sure, try to get them all the same, but it really isn't going to make any big diff.


.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
The Following User Says Thank You to HWYSTR455 For This Useful Post:
  #67  
Old 09-04-2022, 10:25 PM
Verdoro 68's Avatar
Verdoro 68 Verdoro 68 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Clayton, CA
Posts: 2,806
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
Just to say, on the ring gaps, I always cut mine to include a street/strip N2O shot, no harm in doing so, even at large gaps that 'standard', you won't have any additional or measurable blow by. Your call on that. IMO, better safe than sorry. Too little can cause way more damage.

I too believe the 2nd ring gap should be a touch larger, there again, your call.

.
According to the instructions, Total Seal says to go .0045 per inch of bore for both rings. 4.17 x .0045 = .018765, so I ended up filing on the looser side of .018 for both first and second rings. I'm open to suggestions if that sounds like it might cause problems.

I did find it suprising that you install the inside taper differently for the top and bottom rings. The instructions aid it should be installed facing up on the top ring and facing down on the bottom ring (dot facing up).

Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
I use a stone to treat/deburr all edges on the ring ends too.

It's ok if the rings vary slightly, .001-.003 more on any rings is not going to cause problems. Sure, try to get them all the same, but it really isn't going to make any big diff.
.
I took my time filing the rings so they're all really close. I'd say .001 variance at most. I deburred the edges as well.

I cleaned all the pistons while I was at it and found some shavings from the machining process. Good reminder to clean and check all your parts.

I also installed the oil galley plug with the .040 hole for distributor gear oiling.







Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4726.jpg
Views:	450
Size:	34.9 KB
ID:	597853   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4727.jpg
Views:	488
Size:	67.2 KB
ID:	597854   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4728.jpg
Views:	443
Size:	46.2 KB
ID:	597855   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4729.jpg
Views:	427
Size:	75.3 KB
ID:	597856  

__________________
Ken
'68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - 3.55 posi (build thread | walk around)
'95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics)
  #68  
Old 09-05-2022, 07:32 AM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

Nice work! And yes, inspect & clean all parts!

What do the instructions say for first level of N2O? I'm guessing the gap you used was for a standard, non-spray or boost car?

When rings butt, due to whatever reason, it causes damage such as broken rings, accelerated wear (rings & bore), and can hang up in the piston. There are usually 3 specs for rings in the instructions, standard, mild boost or spray, and race. Each step recommends the gap be opened up more. Some instructions are more granular, listing more than those 3 specs.

(attached example pic is a Total Seal Gap sheet, but can vary between ring types)

In the example gap instructions, first stage of N2O and/or boost, it calls for .0055, standard street/strip is .0045 .

.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	TS-RingGaps.jpg
Views:	97
Size:	157.3 KB
ID:	597865  

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
The Following User Says Thank You to HWYSTR455 For This Useful Post:
  #69  
Old 09-05-2022, 07:43 AM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

PS - Did you use any loctite on the galley plugs? Many use the sealant/locker blue or orange.


.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #70  
Old 09-05-2022, 07:44 AM
25stevem's Avatar
25stevem 25stevem is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,744
Default

How much hp are you looking to add with the NOS shot?

__________________
I do stuff for reasons.
  #71  
Old 09-05-2022, 07:48 AM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 25stevem View Post
How much hp are you looking to add with the NOS shot?
I believe he is not using any N2O, but what I was suggesting is to go to the 1st level to be safe, in the even of things like det, overheating, etc, which can make the ends butt.

As I commented, there is no downside going to the next step bigger, and is a good safety padding.

.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #72  
Old 09-05-2022, 09:02 AM
25stevem's Avatar
25stevem 25stevem is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,744
Default

Yes, I always go .001” more just to be totally safe with a NA motor, I also check the ring gap on two bores in each back at the bottom of the bore just to check for taper.

__________________
I do stuff for reasons.
  #73  
Old 09-05-2022, 09:37 AM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

Taper is another good reason to go bigger than just the standard gap recommendations.


.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
The Following User Says Thank You to HWYSTR455 For This Useful Post:
  #74  
Old 09-05-2022, 12:18 PM
Verdoro 68's Avatar
Verdoro 68 Verdoro 68 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Clayton, CA
Posts: 2,806
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
Nice work! And yes, inspect & clean all parts!

What do the instructions say for first level of N2O? I'm guessing the gap you used was for a standard, non-spray or boost car?

When rings butt, due to whatever reason, it causes damage such as broken rings, accelerated wear (rings & bore), and can hang up in the piston. There are usually 3 specs for rings in the instructions, standard, mild boost or spray, and race. Each step recommends the gap be opened up more. Some instructions are more granular, listing more than those 3 specs.

(attached example pic is a Total Seal Gap sheet, but can vary between ring types)

In the example gap instructions, first stage of N2O and/or boost, it calls for .0055, standard street/strip is .0045 .

.
My chart shows the same. Sounds like there's no harm, and maybe some reassurance, in going a little more generous than .018. If I got by the next step up, that would put my at .023 which is quite a bit bigger.

What if I split the difference with .020 on the top ring and .023 on the bottom ring? What's the logic behind the wider gap on the bottom ring?

Good call on checking at the bottom of the cylinder. Just had it bored with a torque plate so it should be uniform, but I'll check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
PS - Did you use any loctite on the galley plugs? Many use the sealant/locker blue or orange.
I used Loctite sealant on the plugs.

__________________
Ken
'68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - 3.55 posi (build thread | walk around)
'95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics)
  #75  
Old 09-05-2022, 01:24 PM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

Cool, loctite works, and even if it seeps a little, as long as it doesn't come out, will not see an psi change.

Really, .005 is nothing, think about gapping a plug from .030 to .035. I say just go to the next step, at least.

Now that I think about it, I actually would go 2 steps above standard on my builds, because I knew I was good to a 250 shot. That last engine went over 100k hard miles, and a bunch of N2O. I sold the short block to someone on this board, and they ran it like it was for probably another 100k. That was a 400, the strokers after that I know I went at least 1 step above standard, but would have to look it up to be sure exactly how much. I do have all the blueprint info on all my engines, so know I have that info.

You will not have any additional oil consumption or blow by over standard, if any, it would be so marginal you won't be able to measure it. Even at the widest gaps.

Ask Butler when you call, see what they say, but bet it will be kind of vague, since there's not a lot of negative impact in going bigger than intended purpose per the manufacturer's recommendations.

.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #76  
Old 09-05-2022, 01:56 PM
Verdoro 68's Avatar
Verdoro 68 Verdoro 68 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Clayton, CA
Posts: 2,806
Default

True, .005 is not at lot here.

Regarding the oil rings: I know you usually don’t have to mess with them, but I want to double check the .008 gap I’m seeing with them is ok.

__________________
Ken
'68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - 3.55 posi (build thread | walk around)
'95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics)
  #77  
Old 09-05-2022, 01:57 PM
25stevem's Avatar
25stevem 25stevem is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,744
Default

The gaps are set wider on the second ring because that’s where most of the heat migrated to in the piston and as such that ring expands more.

__________________
I do stuff for reasons.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to 25stevem For This Useful Post:
  #78  
Old 09-05-2022, 02:20 PM
HWYSTR455's Avatar
HWYSTR455 HWYSTR455 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Manassas, VA
Posts: 14,658
Default

The spec is .015, if it's tighter, may want to open them up. But, I've never had to open them up before, which makes me wonder if you got a set for a diff bore. Check.

They are made of a diff material than other rings, and are 'flimsy', so grinding them may be difficult. You may want to try stacking 2 or more on top of each other when you grind them, to help prevent them from flopping around.

Before you open them up, ask Butler would be my suggestion.

True on the 2nd ring, but, if you are already going to a step or two over the 'standard' gap, it's ok to make them the same as the top ring.


EDIT: You might be able to use vise grips with 2 popsicle sticks, put the oil ring in between the popsicle sticks and use a fine hand file. That might be easier than trying to grind them. You also might be able to stand them up on their' edge, and then use the grinder. Experiment.

.

__________________
.

1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #79  
Old 09-05-2022, 02:43 PM
Verdoro 68's Avatar
Verdoro 68 Verdoro 68 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Clayton, CA
Posts: 2,806
Default

The set is explicitly for a 4.17 bore so they should be right. I took an oil ring out of the bore, gently flexed it up and down a little bit, then put it back in. The gap opened up to .015, so maybe they just need some slight persuasion. Doesn't feel good doing that, but they're pretty thin rings.

Just to confirm for the compression ring gap, I'm hearing .023 on the first and .025 on the second?

Interesting old post (#16) by mgarblik on ring gaps and how wider doesn't impact performance. HWYSTAR, you make an appearance in the thread too: https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...79#post5554779

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4731.jpg
Views:	420
Size:	53.7 KB
ID:	597897  

__________________
Ken
'68 GTO - Ram Air II 464 - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - 3.55 posi (build thread | walk around)
'95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics)

Last edited by Verdoro 68; 09-05-2022 at 02:48 PM.
  #80  
Old 09-05-2022, 03:44 PM
TedRamAirII TedRamAirII is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ocala, Florida
Posts: 2,755
Default

What's the SNAFU on the Duplicolor DE1616 paint? have you tried it again?

__________________
1968 Firebird 400 RAII M21, 3.31 12 bolt, Mayfair Maize.
1977 Trans Am W72 400, TH350, 3.23 T Top

Everyone you will ever meet knows something you don't.
Bill Nye.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:08 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017