#201  
Old 01-10-2018, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Tom Vought
Just to give you a heads-up on the boosted Holley Carb deal we will probably change 90% of the Holley Parts in some way to make it work.
So we will be taking it step by step just like the NA carb discussion.

Tom V.

Ok Tom, Thanks,

Frank

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  #202  
Old 01-10-2018, 04:12 PM
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Just a quick post and a bit later I will post some other pictures. This post is about the fuel system.

A normal Pontiac Fuel Pump in the old days put out about 6-7 psi of fuel pressure and had a average fuel flow rate for the 1960s time frame.

So if a guy wanted to add a bit of boost (using his Paxton Supercharged Pontiac kit, Yes, Paxton did offered a Pontiac Kit) part of the modifications was adding a nipple to the fuel pump vent or diaphragm housing and run a hose from that nipple to the Paxton Bonnet. So if you had 5 psi in the Bonnet, the Mechanical Fuel Pump saw extra pressure (stock pressure + 5 psi) to the carburetor. The carb fuel bowl still saw 6-7 psi but the actual pressure 5 psi of boost pressure in the bonnet and 5 psi pushing on the fuel pump diaphragm (were fighting each other to a "tie"). That deal works pretty well at a few psi of boost pressure. I have attached a picture of the fuel pump and where the pressure line would connect to the fuel pump and the pressure bonnet.

Tom V.
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  #203  
Old 01-10-2018, 06:47 PM
KEN CROCIE KEN CROCIE is offline
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When developing the TurboForce kits, we found the mechanical pump would track the boost pressure up to about 8-9 psi. After that the fuel pressure would start dropping off relative to the boost pressure. 6year old Kevin ( Crocie jr.) was watching the gauges for me as I made Banzii runs up the 57 freeway in the '78 T/A mule.

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  #204  
Old 01-10-2018, 06:56 PM
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Thanks Ken and Kevin for the real world data for a Boosted TurboForce Pontiac Engine.
Tom V.

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  #205  
Old 01-10-2018, 09:26 PM
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So you now have a Explaination of how that basic system worked in the old days, a picture, and some real world data on a TurboForce Pontiac Trans Am from Me Crocie.

A More Modern System works much better, lets call it a pre-EFI system.

A "More Modern System" system can be done a couple of ways.

One way is to use a lower pressure high fuel flow volume pump to feed fuel into a "Surge Tank" and then any excess fuel just returns back to the fuel tank. A Mallory 140 fuel pump has worked well for this in the past and is quiet whereas the old Blue Holley fuel pump's vanes jam easily and the pump is very noisy. The old Mallory 140 fuel pumps are still out there. With no fuel pressure required it will pass a lot more fuel that 140 gallons per hour in the simple fuel circuit: Fuel Tank, high capacity Fuel Filter, Surge Tank, and the back to the Gas Tank thru a Return Line.

The fuel schematic for the boosted carb would look something like this illustration except substitute Boosted Carb for EFI in the picture.
The Surge Tank would have a higher pressure EFI style Fuel Pump (from 255 LPH to as much as 425 LPH) to feed the Boosted Carb
high pressure fuel. Before the fuel went into the carb fuel bowls it would go they a dedicated Fuel Pressure Regulator (like a Aeromotive
Regulator 13202) that could control from 6 psi to 20 psi. https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/produc...ass-regulator/

Tom V.
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  #206  
Old 01-11-2018, 07:46 AM
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One of the reasons why I included the above system is that it has been done many times on other vehicles with marginal systems.

It does not require you to tear into your fuel tank to add a rear sump.

It is similar to a system sold presently by a PY member in this link: http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products.html
(Not advertising for the guy) just stating that it could be an alternative to a complete rework of the vehicles fuel system for using a boost device (Turbo or Centrifugal Supercharger).

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products.html

The point of this post is that the Surge Tank system is an improvement over the previous boosted mechanical fuel pump used in the early Turboforce days. The owner of the surge tank system claims enough fuel at 25 psi (absolute pressure or 19 psi to offset boost and 6 psi going into the fuel bowls as mentioned before) to support around 1000 hp. The next system discussed will be a dedicated Internal Multi Fuel Pump system.

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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 01-11-2018 at 07:56 AM.
  #207  
Old 01-11-2018, 08:55 AM
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So now we move into the higher end fuel systems for a Boosted Holley Carb engine. For this system you need to either modify your tank to allow installation of the in-tank fuel pump(s) or but a fuel tank already fabricated by the Tank Manufacturer.

There are two Major Players in the aftermarket [(internal fuel pump(s)] Fuel Tank market. AEROMOTIVE and Tanks Inc.

AEROMOTIVE does a lot of higher horsepower systems whereas Tanks Inc does more of the Enthusiast/road vehicle (fuel system upgrade)
type tanks. Either one makes nice products or you could build (or have fabricated) your own custom system.

So today I will use the AEROMOTIVE parts only because they have some nice schematics on the web.

So here are the schematics:

In the first schematic "Dual Phantom Redundant (single Holley Carb) it states that the system can support 850 horsepower and if one fuel pump were to die on you the system has a second fuel pump installed in the tank like the first one that could allow you to continue on down the road with your 850 HP Boosted Engine vehicle. 850 HP on a true Street Car is a bunch of horsepower. We had a 780 HP "Mule" Boosted EFI vehicle at work and many engineers were not capable of driving it on the street and shifting the manual trans at the same time. Auto trans might be a different story.

In the second schematic "Dual Phantom STAGED (single Holley Carb) it states that the system can support 1700 horsepower and if one fuel pump gets you down the road on the street the system has a second fuel pump installed in the tank like the first one that could allow you to drag race the vehicle with your 1700 HP Boosted Engine fuel system capability. You will not make 1700 hp blowing thru a single 850 cfm Holley Carb in most cases. I know of one case where a 505 chebby was close to that number with a large Dominator carb installed.

All that being said, there are fuel systems out there today that can handle very high HP engines.

Tom V.

The Tanks, inc and Aeromotive tank I believe are made by the same supplier so most of the work could be performed on either basic tank.
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  #208  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:51 AM
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A couple of other comments on post #207.
1) Occasionally I will hit the wrong key on the keyboard (for example in the second sentence above where I should have typed "BUY" and typed "BUT" by accident. Even though I try to edit the post before I submit it I miss things at times.

2) I try to break the info down into small "chunks" so that each piece of info can be mulled over and understood before I move on to the next step.

That being said, we have covered, somewhat, the Bonnet or the enclosure for the Holley Carburetor, the Fuel Tank, and touched on the fuel lines. A Bit more on the fuel lines and the fuel filtration systems available.

I personally decided to plumb my street 64 GTO for two 3/8" fuel lines using a factory replacement (slightly larger 3/8" steel line) fuel line on the driver's side of the vehicle and a 3/8" factory replacement (CHEVELLE 3/8" steel line) fuel line on the passenger side of the vehicle.
Not that expensive and two 3/8" lines would allow "staging" the fuel system vs having too much fuel pump pressure/flow at given times.

I planned on using a 1/2" Chevelle steel fuel line on the passenger side of the frame for fuel return. By doing a staging set-up I figured I would never need to return more fuel to the fuel tank vs what the 1/2" return line could pass.

One each of the 3/8" fuel lines (because I am using a dual in-tank fuel pump system) I have installed Aeromotive 10 micron high flow fuel canister fuel filters before the fuel pressure regulator. See info below. Aeromotive recommends 100 micron fuel filters (if the fuel pumps are external to the fuel tank) on the INLET side of the fuel pumps. The in-tank fuel pumps have dedicated fuel screens of the correct size on the fuel pumps so the large diameter (100 micron) canister filters are not required in this case. Tech Bulletin link attached.

http://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/..._Filter_02.pdf

https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/produc...se-10m-filter/

Have a great day.

Tom V.

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  #209  
Old 01-11-2018, 05:08 PM
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Going to post up some information on a Fuel Pressure Regulator that has been used (for many years with success) on Boosted Holley Carburetors. At one time most on the Turbo Forums were using this regulator with their Blow-thru Carburetors.

I am providing the specs (taken from the Summit Info) for the regulator.

I will put a Bracket [ ] around the Key Information.

Brand: Aeromotive

Manufacturer's Part Number: [ 13202 ]

Part Type: Fuel Pressure Regulators

Product Line: Aeromotive A2000 Carbureted Bypass Regulators

Summit Racing Part Number: [ AEI-13202 ]

UPC: 684980000108

Pressure Range (psi): [ 2-20 psi ]

Regulator Style: [ Return style Regulator ]

Regulator Location: Inline

Boost/Vacuum Reference Port: [ Yes ]

Boost/Vacuum Rise Ratio: Very Important [ 1:1 ]

Gauge Port: No

Mounting Bracket Included: Yes

Fittings Included: No

Rebuildable: [ Yes ]

Inlet Quantity: One

Inlet Attachment: Female threads

Inlet Size: [ -10 AN O-ring ]

Outlet Quantity: [ Four ] could be used on a Tri-Power Boosted Carburetor System (3 used for fuel to carb bowls on Tri-Power, 1 used for gage).

Outlet Attachment: Female threads

Outlet Size: -8 AN O-ring

Return Attachment: Female threads

Return Fitting Size: -10 AN O-ring

Regulator Material: Aluminum

Regulator Finish: Red anodized

So the regulator has a lot of nice features.
One a Holley 4 BBL system you would have two feel lines to the bowls, one fuel pressure line for a gage, and one location plugged.

Of all of the specs above the most important one for the regulator is the 1 to 1 pressure rise capability. With each psi of boost you want the bowl fuel pressure to still be at 6 psi that the needles & seats and the float sees.

Tom V.

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  #210  
Old 01-11-2018, 09:42 PM
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So we covered most of the Boosted System components so back on the Boosted 850 Holley Carburetor Tomorrow.

Tom V

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  #211  
Old 01-12-2018, 01:37 PM
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Today going to talk about Blow thru Holley carbs and a small bit of history on how to enrich the Holley Carb's air/fuel mixture when the manifold goes into boost mode.

Over on the Turbo Forums there was a specific Forum on Boosted Carburetors, modifications that people tried, results from those efforts, and
if the efforts amounted to anything. Thousand and Thousands of Carb Mod posts over the years.

The issue that always came up is how do you add fuel to the carb when under boost mode.

With a Centrifugal Supercharger you could have a different boost level over the rpm range because the supercharger was tied to the engine rpm by the drive belt.

With a Turbo, the Engine goes into boost fairly quickly and then a Wastegate holds the boost level at that Boost pressure thru out the acceleration curve. So if you want 15 psi of boost you sent the wastegate control pressure (using a boost gage) and dial in the wastegate control rod to give you that boost level in the intake manifold.

So a Turbo is a bit easier to dial in for a constant boost pressure over a rpm range.

But back on the Holley Carb.

Power Valves ADD EXTRA FUEL to the Main Wells of the carb thru the Power Valve opening and distribute that extra flow thru either a "Two Window" or "Four Window" opening in the valve.
Then the fuel goes thru Power Valve Channel Restrictions to the Main Wells. A stock Holley Metering Block has TWO POWER VALVE RESTRICTIONS. A Blow Thru Holley Carb might have as many as SIX POWER VALVE RESTRICTIONS IN EACH METERING BLOCK to add the extra fuel needed to go with the air being supplied by the boosting device.

I have attached some pics of modified Power Valves and Metering Blocks.

Using this link: https://www.theturboforums.com/threa....358671/page-2
you can go to Post #30 on the 2nd page of the thread and you can click on a video made by Steve Morris (about a C&S Blow thru Dyno Carb Test). C&S does a fine job on building Blow Thru Carbs. NOT CHEAP but they work very well and I have tried several other guys carb mods in the past. The C&S Carb Guy (ROGER) seems to have the Power Valve issues that puzzled others for years figured out. In this case better to just buy the carb vs spend months and months trying the same stuff the other guys tried with the same poor results.

I could show you lots of pics on Jet Extensions, Power valve Cup Extensions, modded Power Valve Metering Blocks [with 2 Holes (stock), with 4 Holes (performance and street), and 6 Holes (Race) drillings.

And that would be only a small part of the puzzle.

I will keep posting the typical mods done in the past on carbs but at the end of the day if you want to be successful talking to Roger at C&S might be the best path for a Boosted Holley carb.

Tom V.
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  #212  
Old 01-12-2018, 05:17 PM
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When you are "Off Boost", you want the Holley Carb to drive "normally" going down the road.

The "Power Valve Circuit" is appropriately named as its sole purpose is to add fuel to the Main Wells under "Power" modes of the vehicle/engine.

Even if you had a Naturally Aspirated Holley carb,
the info I will provide next, would be of some benefit. The pictures show making the Metering Block PVCR circuit "adjustable".
The only difference between that and a Boosted Power Valve Circuit is you would have more Drillings in the same location of the Metering Block depending on the extra fuel required.

(You need more drillings on a Boosted Carb because the PVCRs are small and for each hole you can only make that PVCR hole so big. Need more fuel, add more PVCR holes and "restrictors" to the carb.)

Tom V.
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  #213  
Old 01-12-2018, 05:24 PM
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Another Mod that you need to make to the Rear Metering Block is to make and install a Power Valve Spring Cup and a lowered Fuel Inlet Tube for the fuel to get to the Rear Power Valve.

As you can see in the two pictures attached the Power Valve opening is no longer just open to the Rear Bowl Area.
It now has a special spring cup and Lower Fuel Inlet Tube that gets the fuel inlet lower in the carb bowl and also extends
the fuel entrance farther toward the rear of the bowl.
Obviously you need to modify the Rear Black Float for the Power Valve Fuel Inlet Tube otherwise the Float would not drop to the bottom of the bowl.

Tom V.
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 01-12-2018 at 06:01 PM.
  #214  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:46 PM
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Tomorrow I will try to post up some additional info on how to control the Power Valves and How to open them with a Boosted Engine.

Tom V.

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  #215  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:28 AM
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I made this post on the Turbo Forums in 2006:

"A turbo kit company in Washington State offered a boost activated power valve with the only modification to the valve being they removed the spring from the normal location (by cutting the coils and pulling them off the valve, not turning the brass threaded adjuster). This power valve was new.

They then made a simple bracket that attached to the jets where the jets screwed in to the metering block.

They then took a second used power valve and unscrewed the brass threaded adjuster, removed the power valve spring and mounted the spring so that the spring pressure kept the power valve closed normally. When under boost pressure in the power valve cavity pushed the Power valve open against the used spring pressure/ bracket resistance. Tuning the opening point was easy as the used power valves come in lots of sizes 2.5",3.5", 4.5" etc, all the way to a 12.5" PV.
Very simple really."

A reply by one of the Turbo Forum Members:

"Ha, ha, ha. That is exactly what I came up with but totally without the knowledge of this company that you spoke of. I did make a bracket that was bolted down using the regular jets and it also had a small boss that I just tacked on so that the spring from the PV would be centered on the brass head of the regular PV and as you mentioned, just take off the regular spring on a regular PV. This is effective to some degree but with the pressures in the carb bowl and in the PV well, it equalizes too good that the valve doesn't open as far as it is desired to. I now have a metering block that has a channel in it that is boost referencing to the PV in the well but I also am blocking off that little boost hole in the carb body so that there is absolutely no vaccum at all, just boost. Also if you look at a 650/750 carb body, there's enough meat so that you can actually drill and install a tube there to boost reference the PV that way too but using the metering block is/was easier."

So as mentioned earlier there has been much effort on trying to get the fuel curve correct and adding the fuel at the right time to a Holley carb.

I will post up a couple of simple PV Bracket Puctures (to hold the Power Valve shut) and then a link to an old Hot Rod Article that used Kevin from CSU's Carb and how his Blow Thru carb was assembled to make 1000 hp.

Here is the link to the article.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/watch...wer-blow-carb/

That being said, I was at a Dyno session at Steve Morris Dyno, (they were doing a carb shoot-out) on a BB Chevy and saw both the CSU Guy (Kevin) and his CSU Carb and the C&S Guy (Roger's) Blow-thru carb make over 2000 HP during testing.

Tom V.

ps For a while years ago Kevin (from CSU) was posting on the PY Board.

Tom V.
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  #216  
Old 01-13-2018, 04:23 PM
KEN CROCIE KEN CROCIE is offline
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Too much work! I think I'll use a Q-Jet on my next turbo build

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  #217  
Old 01-13-2018, 05:44 PM
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What ever you want to do Ken.
No issues with me.

I figure that you have the Highest Boosted Q-Jet Pontiac engine on the planet.

Tom V.

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  #218  
Old 01-13-2018, 06:05 PM
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Once you get past the basic Holley Carb rebuild, there are about 7 other steps you need to do to get a 15 psi Boosted Street Carb. That includes removing the Choke Tower for even airflow to the carb venturis and and adding things like adjustable Power Valve Restrictions and Jet Extensions along with Black Floats.

Tom V.

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  #219  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:42 PM
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Instead of listing all of the steps to do a proper Holley Carb Rebuild and then the Boosted Carb Mods, I will pass on a link for a old friend's website from the 2002 time frame. (Andrew's info is copywrited).

The website info is 'still out there' but "Andrew" has stopped posting on the Turbo Forums for at least 15 years.

I do not think that he will mind sharing his knowledge to our Street Section of the PY forums. Here is the link:

http://www.hangar18fabrication.com/blowthru.html

Andrew has many pictures in the article.
In each case, he will say ,PIC, and you can click on 'pic' to see a picture and then go back to reading the Hanger 18 article.

"Andrew" from Hanger 18 used to post quite a bit of the Turbo forums and wrote up a step by step procedure (with lots of pictures) on how to do a Holley carb rebuild and some simple mods for a 10-12 psi Boosted Carb engine.

Tom V.

Many Times GOOD WORK takes a lot of effort.

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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 01-13-2018 at 10:49 PM.
  #220  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
I do not think that he will mind sharing his knowledge to our Street Section of the PY forums.
Many Times GOOD WORK takes a lot of effort.

Tom V.

Please express our gratitude to your friend "Andrew" for his contribution, as it is very much appreciated by all.
Any WORK WORTH DOING is WORTH DOING WELL.


Thanks,

Frank

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The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




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