#261  
Old 11-13-2022, 09:49 PM
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After a few days of drips, I pulled the short block apart again. The lip on the two piece was entirely wet so it was clear it was leaking. I'm still not sure exactly what why the Viton seals gave me so much trouble, maybe It was a combo of little things.

As a last ditch effort, I decided to try the graphite seal. I cleaned the seal channel really well before installing and removed the gasket maker from the anti-rotation holes. I used a deep well socket to set it in place and lubed the surface with some motor oil and assembly lube. I put the crank in place with the cap to test the contact between the graphite seal and the crank. The lube on the seal left a witness mark all around the crank which I took as a good sign. Not sure why I didn't think of doing that with the Viton seals.

I learned from my last several attempts that a bead of black Right Stuff over the rear main cap and on the the edges of the pan do the trick to seal the pan back there. I've had it tilted full of oil for about 8 hours now and there's not a drip in sight. Dare I say it, I'm calling the short block done! Hopefully this seal doesn't give me any trouble when I fire it up.

Stopped by the machine shop of Friday. No progress on the the heads, but he assured me he'd have them for me in the next two weeks. Heard that story before







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  #262  
Old 11-13-2022, 10:16 PM
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A leak-free Pontiac rear main is an accomplishment!

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  #263  
Old 11-14-2022, 09:15 AM
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Yep, like many have already stated, if you're going to keep those serrations in the crank, you're better off with that rope seal. Those serrations are there to trap oil and keep that rope lubricated. If the rope were to go dry, it'll burn up and leak.

The BOP was never going to work properly with those serrations. They will seep oil past the serrations as the rubber will not fill those voids like a rope does, hence the leaking while sitting there. In severe cases those serrations can actually eat away at the rubber seals.

The rubber seals are designed for a nice smooth surface. Some aftermarket cranks apparently come either way. If you have serrations you either have to make the decision to polish those serrations down so they aren't so severe if you want a BOP seal, or just put a rope seal in it.

It's really a pretty simple deal really.

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  #264  
Old 11-14-2022, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdoro 68 View Post
Dare I say it, I'm calling the short block done! Hopefully this seal doesn't give me any trouble when I fire it up.
That's great to hear. I'm eager to see you get this motor done. I hope it turns out awesome 'cause you've earned it for sure.

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  #265  
Old 11-14-2022, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
The BOP was never going to work properly with those serrations.
The Viton seal clearly works well for a lot of folks with serrated cranks, but it seems like the graphite seal is much more of a sure bet. It's also surprisingly easy to install compared to the BOP seals. In hindsight, I should have skipped the two piece experiment and just gone straight for the graphite seal, but I was following Butler and BOP's recommendations.

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Originally Posted by jhein View Post
That's great to hear. I'm eager to see you get this motor done. I hope it turns out awesome 'cause you've earned it for sure.
I'm eager to see it done too! It's been almost a year since I pulled it from the car. It took 5 months to get the rotating assembly. The heads have been at the shop for 10 months. Patience is a virtue these days. I've been using the extra time to make sure I've got everything buttoned up and dialed in as best I can.

Reading through past threads, I do get anxious about potential failures. I've tried to do my homework and pick up the most reliable parts in addition to keeping things as spotless as I can and well lubricated during assembly (I love that Redline assembly lube!). Definitely appreciate the advice here.

Over my 30 year ownership of this car there have been 4 different builds. The first two lasted a couple years each because I cheaped out on parts and slapped things together. The third lasted about 8 years while detonation slowly killed it. The last build made it 10 years, but it was clearly hobbling along after it ate the valve stem seals early on in its life. Each build and subsequent dissection gave me some more knowledge to work from.

Time will tell how this thing holds together, but I'm hoping to get some longevity out of this incarnation. I've got the engine compartment all cleaned up and detailed, new wiring installed and the rebuilt trans ready to go. Just waiting on the heads now.

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  #266  
Old 11-14-2022, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verdoro 68 View Post
The Viton seal clearly works well for a lot of folks with serrated cranks, but it seems like the graphite seal is much more of a sure bet. It's also surprisingly easy to install compared to the BOP seals. In hindsight, I should have skipped the two piece experiment and just gone straight for the graphite seal, but I was following Butler and BOP's recommendations.


Well....yes and no. You also have to ask yourself how often people are actually driving these things to get any real world results for comparison sake.

Driving something 1,000 miles a year for the last few years doesn't amount to much as that is honestly just sitting most of the time. Chances of a leak are minimized.
If someone wants to call that a success, well then I guess

Fact is though, a rubber seal like that is designed for a nice smooth surface. If you look at OEM cranks that use seals like that from the factory, you won't find serrations that I've ever seen. They are smooth and polished. At a minimal, using those seals on a serrated crank, the serrations should be polished to some degree to knock down the sharp edges, otherwise they will tend to grab those seals over time and chew away at them.

I would take a guess that success stories with a rubber seal and serrated crank or more than likely on 50 year old used cranks that are already pretty well smooth from 200,000 miles of a rope seal rubbing on it.
That brand new crank you had with fresh serrations, as it was, I wouldn't think would be long for this world with a rubber seal on it.

I feel you went the right direction and fingers crossed it gives you years of trouble free service. I like the build and exactly how I'd do it if I had those parts laying around.

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Old 11-14-2022, 01:28 PM
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gosh good work...not looking forward to giving this another go

  #268  
Old 11-14-2022, 04:03 PM
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That's the most beautiful rope seal I've ever seen.

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  #269  
Old 12-27-2022, 05:24 PM
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Stopped by the machine shop today to motivate him into finishing up my heads. I’m impressed with his meticulousness, but it sure is testing my patience! We’re at almost a year since i dropped them off. He actually had my valves and heads out on his bench this time, so that’s a good sign. We talked details on valve angles, guides and seats.

Since I’ve changed cams a couple times on this build, I’m wondering if the Comp 995 springs Kauffmann sold me are still ok with the new .521/.540 cam. It’s not a huge change in lift from what I started with (.502/.510) and the max lift on those is .620 so I suspect I’ll be ok. I told him to let me know if he sees any issues.

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  #270  
Old 12-27-2022, 09:02 PM
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That's the most beautiful rope seal I've ever seen.
X2 that is a beautiful rope seal

GT

  #271  
Old 12-27-2022, 09:06 PM
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Been sitting with oil in it for a month and a half and it’s still dry as a bone. Fingers crossed it stays that way.

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  #272  
Old 12-27-2022, 11:59 PM
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Stopped by the machine shop today to motivate him into finishing up my heads. I’m impressed with his meticulousness, but it sure is testing my patience! We’re at almost a year since i dropped them off. He actually had my valves and heads out on his bench this time, so that’s a good sign. We talked details on valve angles, guides and seats.

Since I’ve changed cams a couple times on this build, I’m wondering if the Comp 995 springs Kauffmann sold me are still ok with the new .521/.540 cam. It’s not a huge change in lift from what I started with (.502/.510) and the max lift on those is .620 so I suspect I’ll be ok. I told him to let me know if he sees any issues.
Good plan! I’m certain my car would have taken a lot longer to get painted if I didn’t visit the body man on the regular.

  #273  
Old 01-09-2023, 03:53 PM
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While I wait for the heads, I started prepping the car so it's at least ready for the engine.

I refinished the frame and rebuilt the suspension last Spring, but it had gotten dusty so I wiped that all down and installed the new engine harness I got from Ames over the Summer.

I had the TH400 rebuilt back in April. I've been tripping over it in the garage ever since, so I put it back in the car. Happy to see that the Harbor Freight trans jack is low enough to support the trans while the engine is out when the car is off jack stands.

I installed new stainless cooler lines and associated plastic clip (which I didn't know was a thing) from Inline Tube. They took a little tweaking, but they ended up fitting pretty well. Reinstalled the cleaned up driveshaft as well.

I have a shipment from Ames coming this Friday with all the '68 Ram Air stuff. I wasn't going to install it, but figured I might as well complete the look since I've gone this far.








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Old 01-09-2023, 04:02 PM
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All of that looks beautiful. Very nice work.

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  #275  
Old 01-21-2023, 11:01 PM
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Still waiting on those heads. I probably should have pulled them and taken them to another shop 6 months ago. In the mean time, I folded and got the Ram Air setup and started collecting all the detail items so I can drop this thing in and go. At this rate, I'll have the most correct incorrect '68 GTO!





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  #276  
Old 01-23-2023, 08:31 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Ram2 wires mighta been 2 - Q - 68
Just foolin around.

If you can post the machinists' email address we could all send him friendly little emails
asking him to get your heads done this week.

I wonder which part of the process is bothering him so much.
Something is making him nervous or is causing him pain .... idunno

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Old 01-24-2023, 12:53 AM
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My car was born the fourth week of May (05D) so 2-Q would be correct, but they only make 1-Q and 3-Q wires. My hose clamps are correct though I don't know why I'm doing the date code thing. Just for fun I guess because there's no way this car would pass any kind of judging.

In a funny coincidence, one of the #16 heads on the car had the same casting date as one of RAII heads (D228).

My machinist is totally analog. He's been in business since 1954 and is old school so you gotta call him on the phone or show up at his shop. In fairness, he answers every time I call and refuses to take any money until the job is done. I'm not out anything besides time, but I am running short of patience.

He's been doing a lot of Harley and late model heads recently, so I figure he's putting mine off because it's a heavy cast iron V8 head as opposed to a small piece of aluminum. Earlier in the year there was no rush because I didn't have the rotating assembly and they just got back burnered. I'm getting close to driving over there and mounting them on the Serdi myself to get the job done.

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  #278  
Old 02-21-2023, 01:26 AM
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Finally, some progress on the heads!

He had the spring seats setup for proper install height and was finishing up the guides when I stopped in. It's table stakes, but I was glad to see him doing the math on my cam lift and the valve stem seal clearance since that was an issue in my last build. I imagine his choice of guide material will be controversial around here. I was expecting manganese bronze, but he insisted on hardened cast iron based on his experience. Hopefully I'll have them within the week.



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  #279  
Old 02-25-2023, 02:19 PM
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The machinist asked me to come by yesterday so he could show me what he's up to. Although it's been a very long wait, I'm impressed to see the level of care and attention he's been putting into the heads and that's worth the extra time to me.

The valve springs are all setup for the proper installed height and correct seat pressure. The guides are all finished and cut to the proper height for the stem seals. The exhaust seats (a hot topic around here!) are installed and finished and look like jewelry. He started blending the seats into the bowls which looked great to me and is beyond what I was expecting. Between the intake and exhaust port matching and the blending, these things ought to flow pretty well for not being fully ported.

This is probably a regular practice for a machinist, but he has a log book of all his past builds with all the machine work details and was able to show me previous Pontiac heads he did and why he made the choices he did. As you all know, these heads aren't cheap or plentiful so hearing his rationale and talking through the work in detail put me at ease that we're not messing anything up.





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Old 02-25-2023, 07:50 PM
Baron Von Zeppelin Baron Von Zeppelin is offline
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Great update and good news.
Definitely not just the old cut-n-dry routine.

Did he do any of the shortblock preps ?

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