[Green Hornet]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

restamping, is only for the really sketchy side of the hobby.

I have said it before, and I am going to say it again, after number matching, numbers correct is the next best thing;
The only way that it can get in between numbers matching and numbers correct, is if it's numbers correct AND date correct.

Very few of these cars still have their original born-with drivetrain, so finding one with it, or reuniting one with the other is a pretty rare deal.

I hope this works out to be something that is agreeable for both parties, because I'd be hard pressed to let got of a correct 1970 WS motor, for an original WS powered car.

I put my YZ engine on that list;
And even put out a "wanted" incase my car's original motor is out there.

On the subject of re-stamping blocks....I believe that most high end professional car restorers have no qualms about re-stamping blocks,etc...in their quest for a "perfect" restoration".......

Not sure if I agree or not......but there is prolly a lot more of it going on than we care to know about

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Ramairnacho

I'm the new guy what's a IA2 engine?

The IA2 is an aftermarket block based on one originally created by Indian Adventures;

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=544357

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

... The Indian Adventure blocks were first Generation blocks. Very strong blocks but average casting processes.

The ALL PONTIAC blocks are based off of the original Indian Adventure blocks but with many improvements so the blocks are actually a block you can trust. I have owned three of the All Pontiac blocks to date. Nice pieces.

Tom V.

http://www.allpontiac.com

Originally Posted by Ramairnacho

... What's the true history value of a ws block?

Value depends, Pontiac reused engine codes many times over;
Typically value of blocks (and parts) is driven by the cars that they are correct for;
'70 Trans Am's and '70 Judges are probably what are really driving up values of '70 Pontiac YZ & WS blocks, as well as #12 heads, and '0270 & '0273 carburetors.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by Green Hornet

On the subject of re-stamping blocks....I believe that most high end professional car restorers have no qualms about re-stamping blocks,etc...in their quest for a "perfect" restoration".......

Not sure if I agree or not......but there is prolly a lot more of it going on than we care to know about

I'm sure that happens. Hypothetically, I could do it with this block. It's even date correct for my car.

In fact when I look at my VIN stamp, the last 3 numbers look different than the rest of the stamp. Much less deep and distinct. I know that these stamped numbers don't always look uniform but it did get me wondering. Of course, the only reason to restamp would be to make it match, which it doesn't so that doesn't really make sense.

Does anyone know when they stamp the VIN on the block? Is it done right after the block is made or just prior to assembly or just prior to installation in the car? Would they do a partial stamp at some earlier phase and then stamp the last three digits just before it goes in the car?

[Norwood]

Chevys are easy restamp because the numbers are on the deck. Pontiac not as easy without detection

[Mark D]

Cool outcome guys - great to see it happen!

[FASTASSBIRD]

Originally Posted by Norwood

Chevys are easy restamp because the numbers are on the deck. Pontiac not as easy without detection

Multiple ways of detecting also. At least 3 maybe 4 ways to spot a restamped block and they are all VERY easy to tell

[FASTASSBIRD]

Originally Posted by jhein

I'm sure that happens. Hypothetically, I could do it with this block. It's even date correct for my car.

In fact when I look at my VIN stamp, the last 3 numbers look different than the rest of the stamp. Much less deep and distinct. I know that these stamped numbers don't always look uniform but it did get me wondering. Of course, the only reason to restamp would be to make it match, which it doesn't so that doesn't really make sense.

Does anyone know when they stamp the VIN on the block? Is it done right after the block is made or just prior to assembly or just prior to installation in the car? Would they do a partial stamp at some earlier phase and then stamp the last three digits just before it goes in the car?

That’s a legit factory stamp. Wouldn’t make sense to stamp a wrong vin. We see partial stamps etc all the time. Hell I have one that’s literally missing the last number in it. Who knows why. The thing to look at is e even spacing and that the numbers are all in a PERFECTLY straight line. Couple other little tells but those are the biggest

[giles]

Originally Posted by jhein

Does anyone know when they stamp the VIN on the block? Is it done right after the block is made or just prior to assembly or just prior to installation in the car? Would they do a partial stamp at some earlier phase and then stamp the last three digits just before it goes in the car?

Engine VIN stamp was done right before the engine dropped into the chassis. Prior to this they did not know in which car a given engine was to be installed.
Engines were built at Pontiac engine plant to a spec, that is WS, YE etc. A ‘71 YE is a 455 HO automatic, when built it could go to an F-car or an A-car. Loaded on to a shipping rack with 5 other YEs and then onto a rail car with a dozen other engine racks. Next stop final assembly. Racks get unloaded. Engines get pulled off as needed for build. First stop is the engine dress line where accessory drive, air cleaner and other items are installed (look at an assembly manual to see what was put on at final). During engine dress a manifest is used and the build is determined so it’s clear which car the engine is headed to. It could be VIN stamped here or right prior to load into the chassis. Plants don’t do everything the same, but I’ve seen the process more recently and VINs were stamped seconds before being loaded into the chassis.

[FASTASSBIRD]

Originally Posted by giles

Engine VIN stamp was done right before the engine dropped into the chassis. Prior to this they did not know in which car a given engine was to be installed.
Engines were built at Pontiac engine plant to a spec, that is WS, YE etc. A ‘71 YE is a 455 HO automatic, when built it could go to an F-car or an A-car. Loaded on to a shipping rack with 5 other YEs and then onto a rail car with a dozen other engine racks. Next stop final assembly. Racks get unloaded. Engines get pulled off as needed for build. First stop is the engine dress line where accessory drive, air cleaner and other items are installed (look at an assembly manual to see what was put on at final). During engine dress a manifest is used and the build is determined so it’s clear which car the engine is headed to. It could be VIN stamped here or right prior to load into the chassis. Plants don’t do everything the same, but I’ve seen the process more recently and VINs were stamped seconds before being loaded into the chassis.

Damn Giles that’s a hell of an answer. Thanks.

[Ramairnacho]

Originally Posted by FASTASSBIRD

Damn Giles that’s a hell of an answer. Thanks.

Man are you making an example of a real stamp with a restamp? That's bs man. You guy said it's a partial stamp now it's the whole stamp. Come on stop bull sitting me. I was told it was the last digits of the Vin not the whole Vin. But who cares. I think the guys that figure out all codes have knowledge to restamp one . Mine is stock to my car and I ve been told it's fake. I call bs on this. He should keep his block you greedy guys don't care about him and that's not right. What if he isn't happy with his new engine then what? He is then screwed. Yhats not right. I was even told my stock exhuast manifolds where to close to assembly of car just because he needed them. I know Bill **** from experience and I call bull ****.

[Green Hornet]

I think we really need some sort thread dedicated to 70-73 T/A;s and Formula's...for cars missing engines...and engines missing cars.....

[FASTASSBIRD]

Originally Posted by Green Hornet

I think we really need some sort thread dedicated to 70-73 T/A;s and Formula's...for cars missing engines...and engines missing cars.....

I agree. Needs to ba. Sticky and closed so only vins can be posted and not get detailed. With the internet now we probably could match a lot more cars up with blocks, especially if we had kept better track of ones sold.

[FASTASSBIRD]

Originally Posted by Ramairnacho

Man are you making an example of a real stamp with a restamp? That's bs man. You guy said it's a partial stamp now it's the whole stamp. Come on stop bull sitting me. I was told it was the last digits of the Vin not the whole Vin. But who cares. I think the guys that figure out all codes have knowledge to restamp one . Mine is stock to my car and I ve been told it's fake. I call bs on this. He should keep his block you greedy guys don't care about him and that's not right. What if he isn't happy with his new engine then what? He is then screwed. Yhats not right. I was even told my stock exhuast manifolds where to close to assembly of car just because he needed them. I know Bill **** from experience and I call bull ****.

That VIN is 100% legit and exactly how it was stamped. No full VIN stamped on the block or the transmission. Allways in perfectly straight alignment. Lots of times faintly stamped as the iron is VERY hard. OCCASIONALLY misstanped with Camaro vin Numbers. (This is a joke relating to a 69 stamped with a Camaro vin so please anyone reading this don’t take this to seriously ).

[unruhjonny]

with anything done by a human, errors happen;
as is the case of these partial vins added to the engine and transmissions.

sometimes they were missed, sometimes mis-stamped, other times not totally legible;
on occasion, they are stamped more than once.

[Formulabruce]

For 1970, and I have mentioned this before, MOST birds got a 9 in the partial Vin stamping (s) on the firewall, vs a correct "0". Yup, a 1969 designation.
Not the block, but factory did it..

[unruhjonny]

/\ that's interesting;
is it safe to presume that this was for january (early builds), and maybe febuary (early production) vehicles?

[eaglesan13]

Giles,

Thanks for the explanation. I've often wondered if they stamped the VIN on the block and the trans at the same time. It would make sense to assemble them, then stamp both VIN's right before dropping them into the frame, or right afterward.

Originally Posted by giles

Engine VIN stamp was done right before the engine dropped into the chassis. Prior to this they did not know in which car a given engine was to be installed.
Engines were built at Pontiac engine plant to a spec, that is WS, YE etc. A ‘71 YE is a 455 HO automatic, when built it could go to an F-car or an A-car. Loaded on to a shipping rack with 5 other YEs and then onto a rail car with a dozen other engine racks. Next stop final assembly. Racks get unloaded. Engines get pulled off as needed for build. First stop is the engine dress line where accessory drive, air cleaner and other items are installed (look at an assembly manual to see what was put on at final). During engine dress a manifest is used and the build is determined so it’s clear which car the engine is headed to. It could be VIN stamped here or right prior to load into the chassis. Plants don’t do everything the same, but I’ve seen the process more recently and VINs were stamped seconds before being loaded into the chassis.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

/\ that's interesting;
is it safe to presume that this was for january (early builds), and maybe febuary (early production) vehicles?

Have personally seen this from Dec ( yeah DEC) to 2nd week of May on 19 different cars.
Since they were 2 hanging pneumatic stampers that needed to be reloaded as
cars came down the line, I can see why it was probably never corrected, or they did not have extra "zero's" .

[FASTASSBIRD]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Have personally seen this from Dec ( yeah DEC) to 2nd week of May on 19 different cars.
Since they were 2 hanging pneumatic stampers that needed to be reloaded as
cars came down the line, I can see why it was probably never corrected, or they did not have extra "zero's" .

I have a 02A Van Nuys built car on the rotisserie. Number 0836 or something like that. BOTH (I didn’t know there were 2) hidden vins have the year stamped with a zero. Happy to send you a pic for your records if you want. Not contesting your statement just providing more examples

[unruhjonny]

wait two hidden vins?

Where's the (obviously lesser known) second one?