[Tom Vaught]

I ran solid flat tappet cams for over 50 years without any issues.
I plan on running a hydraulic flat tappet camshaft for the first time since I bought the car and it will be a street driven HO Racing camshaft with Rhoads lifters. The valvetrain hopefully will last the life of the car. But no maint vs checking lash occasionally like I did on the solid camshafts. My son will be driving the car.

Have seen or read about many failures over the years from the Lifter Needle Bearings, or the overall poor quality of the hydraulic roller lifter parts and yet the OEMs have run hydraulic roller lifter cams since the early 1980s.

I do not put enough miles on my lease vehicles to worry about that stuff with the daily drivers.

Not sure who made the original roller lifters for the first Mustang roller camshaft engines but I do know that CMC provided the steel camshafts. I assume they were original Muskegon Johnson Lifter Company parts, not the stuff the guys in the Detroit area are selling now days.

Tom V.

[ponjohn]

As I said in the other thread - what about a hybrid set up.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Not sure who made the original roller lifters for the first Mustang roller camshaft engines but I do know that CMC provided the steel camshafts. I assume they were original Muskegon Johnson Lifter Company parts, not the stuff the guys in the Detroit area are selling now days.

Tom V.

I'd like to know. My sons 89 5.0 has 256k miles on it now, and the engine has never been cracked open. Runs like a swiss watch, and the darn thing still went 13.85 at 100 mph at the last track outing. If he decides to stick a cam in it, I'll probably just reuse the lifters, lol.

I have a brand new 502 GM crate sitting here with a factory roller cam, and I plan to just use the lifters in it when I do the cam upgrade.

But none of that means I'm afraid to use what's available out there.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

As I said in the other thread - what about a hybrid set up.

What....longevity?? Don't really think anyone here actually daily drives a hybrid setup and puts a ton of miles on them. So hard to say.

You still don't get away from the freak wheel breakage problems, or the possible needle bearing failures. To top that off, you really have to keep a close eye on lash with a hybrid setup because once the lifter gets off the lash ramp area (which a hydraulic doesn't have much of at all) it really does beat up the lifters. So lash has to be kept tight at all times.

My honest opinion from my experiences, you would likely have a better chance of longevity with a hydraulic roller setup with proper lifters, or just go with a solid roller camshaft designed for the solid roller lifter if you don't want the hydraulic part of the equation. Having the proper spring setup for what ever direction you go is just as, if not more, important.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

What....longevity?? Don't really think anyone here actually daily drives a hybrid setup and puts a ton of miles on them. So hard to say.

You still don't get away from the freak wheel breakage problems, or the possible needle bearing failures. To top that off, you really have to keep a close eye on lash with a hybrid setup because once the lifter gets off the lash ramp area (which a hydraulic doesn't have much of at all) it really does beat up the lifters. So lash has to be kept tight at all times.

My honest opinion from my experiences, you would likely have a better chance of longevity with a hydraulic roller setup with proper lifters, or just go with a solid roller camshaft designed for the solid roller lifter if you don't want the hydraulic part of the equation. Having the proper spring setup for what ever direction you go is just as, if not more, important.

So just what are the proper hydraulic roller lifters???

[tom s]

The hybrid deal has been beat to death!The people that make the cams will tell you if you dont want hyd roller lifters and want a street cam to BUY a tight lash street solid roller cam and lifters!Why do we have to go back and beat the poor horse!When you put solids on the hyd roller cam you loose duration and lift! Tom

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by slowbird

So just what are the proper hydraulic roller lifters???

When I said proper I meant hydraulic roller lifters on a hydraulic roller stick, in other words, the way it was meant to be, not a hybrid setup so to speak.

But, if you're curious what I like to use for hydraulic roller lifters, I prefer Johnsons.

Out of all the complaints that have been on this forum about hydraulic roller lifters, most of them are about Morels and being noisy, or the hydraulics flat out failing. Other complaints are sometimes about a broken wheel on the Comp S lifters.
But I don't ever recall anyone complaining about Johnsons.

Problem is they have been hard to obtain. I know back before this beer virus stuff even started they were having a supply problem. I waited a few months and still was no ETA on them. I haven't tried to buy a set since.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by tom s

The hybrid deal has been beat to death!The people that make the cams will tell you if you dont want hyd roller lifters and want a street cam to BUY a tight lash street solid roller cam and lifters!Why do we have to go back and beat the poor horse!When you put solids on the hyd roller cam you loose duration and lift! Tom

Yeah, the subject comes up I think for those already invested in a hydraulic roller and don't want to spend the coin on a new stick.
My opinion, the hydraulic roller failures are so few and far between that I don't worry about it, if I want one, I run it. 3 cars here with them that we drive and beat the snot out of, no issues to date.

[4dblnkldude]

So far so good for me with the Morels, about 300 miles but this thing aint gonna see 6300, maybe 6000 at the track. Still gonna beat it though.

[AG]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

When I said proper I meant hydraulic roller lifters on a hydraulic roller stick, in other words, the way it was meant to be, not a hybrid setup so to speak.

But, if you're curious what I like to use for hydraulic roller lifters, I prefer Johnsons.

Out of all the complaints that have been on this forum about hydraulic roller lifters, most of them are about Morels and being noisy, or the hydraulics flat out failing. Other complaints are sometimes about a broken wheel on the Comp S lifters.
But I don't ever recall anyone complaining about Johnsons.

Problem is they have been hard to obtain. I know back before this beer virus stuff even started they were having a supply problem. I waited a few months and still was no ETA on them. I haven't tried to buy a set since.

I just got a new set of Johnson's from butler last month, they are in stock. I talked to Johnson's in April and they said they had a backlog of parts to be heat-treated before they could assemble and distribute.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Yeah, the subject comes up I think for those already invested in a hydraulic roller and don't want to spend the coin on a new stick.
My opinion, the hydraulic roller failures are so few and far between that I don't worry about it, if I want one, I run it. 3 cars here with them that we drive and beat the snot out of, no issues to date.

That’s kinda how I feel. For every loud horror story, there are probably 50 guys with hydraulic rollers and no problem.

That’s not to say that the issue isn’t real, it’s just that it probably good odds as far as gambling goes. I guess I get it if you are a builder, where one nightmare build can ruin your bottom line.

I’m probably just lazy but the concept of doing a proper break in on most solid or hyd flat tappers where you have to remove the inner spring……that’s anathema to me. I’ll gamble with the rollers all day to avoid having to r&r valve springs during a break in.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by AG

I just got a new set of Johnson's from butler last month, they are in stock. I talked to Johnson's in April and they said they had a backlog of parts to be heat-treated before they could assemble and distribute.

Excellent news, thanks for that

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

That’s kinda how I feel. For every loud horror story, there are probably 50 guys with hydraulic rollers and no problem.

That’s not to say that the issue isn’t real, it’s just that it probably good odds as far as gambling goes. I guess I get it if you are a builder, where one nightmare build can ruin your bottom line.

I’m probably just lazy but the concept of doing a proper break in on most solid or hyd flat tappers where you have to remove the inner spring……that’s anathema to me. I’ll gamble with the rollers all day to avoid having to r&r valve springs during a break in.

Yeah when you figure the 10's of thousands in service that you never hear about, and on top of that figure how small the Pontiac community is, the problems on this forum probably equate to less than 1%.

There are problems with some of them though that have been going on for a long long time, and I know it sucks. Dad did lose a solid roller lifter year before last but we chucked that up to a lot of street miles and quite a bit of spring pressure that eventually killed it. Not the fault of any defect or poor quality. So even solids aren't out the woods.

[dataway]

One thing I always liked about solid lifters is the ability to spot problems accurately and quickly. If there is a problem it's going to make noise as soon as the problem starts. And when checking clearances .... all of them look good ... one of them opened up .005" ... you know something is up.
On motorcycle race engines they would settle in after a race or two ... then, when they start to close up you know valve or seat issues are not far down the road, and if they open up you know tappet or lobe problems are no far off. After a while you could tell exactly what was going on in the top end by tracking the clearances.

[Cliff R]

"Yeah when you figure the 10's of thousands in service that you never hear about, and on top of that figure how small the Pontiac community is, the problems on this forum probably equate to less than 1%."

Correct, and it's just like everything else. IF you do 100 carburetors, for example, you will here pretty much nothing. If the customer has an issue with one of them, you will hear about it 100 times.

Some of the issues we here about on here about noisy HR lifters or one failing are not the fault of the part. You have to remember that the skill level of the person installing the lifters, adjusting them, selecting pushrod length for geometry, spring pressure/installed height, type of rocker arms, clearancing them for valve covers, etc, etc plays into the success rate as well.

Personally I'm NOT overly fond of using retrofit HR's in an engine where you are putting strong springs on it and plan on revving it much past 5500rpm's on a regular basis. If your engine will make peak power past 6000rpm's and you plan on going up that high frequently, you are using the wrong set-up........FWIW.......

[Cliff R]

"One thing I always liked about solid lifters is the ability to spot problems accurately and quickly. If there is a problem it's going to make noise as soon as the problem starts. And when checking clearances .... all of them look good ... one of them opened up .005" ... you know something is up."

+2, 3, 4 and 5.

Makes me wonder how many of these engines are running out there with hydraulic lifter set-ups and they have ground up their Chinese rocker arms and the plunger travel has simply take up the lash so they don't hear anything or know anything is wrong?

When I ground up the pins and rollers on my rockers arms I found out quickly as lash opened up and it got pretty noisy. I lashed them all back down, and within a couple hundred miles it sounded like a meat grinder again. I removed the rocker arms and found ALL of them were going away, a couple had over .015" wear at the pins/rollers and a few were only around .002-003".

I removed them, installed Crower Enduro's and it's been flawless now and never once needed adjustments in at least 10 years!.........FWIW

[Steve C.]

Two related statements by Dave Bisschop here on PY....

"I have dozens of customers bolt the combo together with hyd. roller lifters and not mess with anything. I personally prefer to run hyd. roller lifters vs. the hybrid set up."

"I don't go out of my way to recommend people run solid roller lifters on hyd. roller cams, in fact less than 5% of the hyd. roller cams we sell end up with solid roller lifters on them, my personal preference is to run hyd. roller lifters."


.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by dataway

One thing I always liked about solid lifters is the ability to spot problems accurately and quickly. If there is a problem it's going to make noise as soon as the problem starts. And when checking clearances .... all of them look good ... one of them opened up .005" ... you know something is up.
On motorcycle race engines they would settle in after a race or two ... then, when they start to close up you know valve or seat issues are not far down the road, and if they open up you know tappet or lobe problems are no far off. After a while you could tell exactly what was going on in the top end by tracking the clearances.

Exactly right!!

My sons air cooled bug is the same way. I lash the valves at .006", I can go as much as .004". I check it once a year. What I've seen if anything, is they tend to tighten up over time a thou or two. They never open up. So valve seat wear is usually the culprit.

[dataway]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Exactly right!!

My sons air cooled bug is the same way. I lash the valves at .006", I can go as much as .004". I check it once a year. What I've seen if anything, is they tend to tighten up over time a thou or two. They never open up. So valve seat wear is usually the culprit.

Yep, that would be standard behavior, specially on a head that has had valve work. After a while you can even see the difference in behavior for different valve alloys, seat materials and type of valve job. In fact I'd be worried if new valves or valve job DIDN'T close up a few thous

Solids are super helpful when racing as you rebuild the top end every year or two and compare one seasons lash readings against others. Seeing what changes in materials, valve brands, seat angles, cam lobe treatments, cam profiles, spring pressures and even fuel types have on the valve clearance. In short order you can determine where the problem is and correct it.

[HWYSTR455]

Are you sure it was a Morel lifter? Have a pic?

I ask because that's exactly what happened to a set of Comp S lifters to me.



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