[johnsma22]

still more...

[johnsma22]

The last...

[robscar]

that's interesting to see what actually goes into making a set of headers. when you stop and really think about the myrid steps involved it is a bit mind boggling. thanks for showing them. helps you understand part of what can take so long to produce a set.

[Larry Navarro]

To actually see the examples of what a one-man operation undertakes to produce a set of these masterpieces, the price paid for a set of Rons headers is a bargain.
There is a very popular fellow here locally that builds custom headers for any application and he's not cheap. He charges twice what Ron asks for his.
Oh yes....thats for the largest market there is.....the small block chevy. No telling what he would charge for a set of Pontiac headers.

Shame on those who choose NOT to support Ron.............

[73ta]

Actually, I did support Ron for almost 16 months with a no interest loan of close to $700. Just could'nt wait any longer and I'm using RAR manifolds to run down the track at Sacramento Raceway instead of watching others run for the second year. Funny though he called me when I cancelled and told me they were done and I could pick them up on 6/10/06. Anybody receive my done headers yet?

[gearbanger]

Kiss it Larry!

[gearbanger]

What is so cheap about paying $700 and not getting anything! You are an idiot for posting something like "shame on those who do not support Ron."

[johnsma22]

Originally Posted by gearbanger

What is so cheap about paying $700 and not getting anything! You are an idiot for posting something like "shame on those who do not support Ron."

I submit that you are not behaving like a mature adult by publicly calling one of the most respected members of this forum and idiot. While I sympathize with you for feeling like you have been ripped off, as I am in the same boat, and Ron also has my $700, it is my belief that Ron will make good on his obligations.

It is a shame that people did not realize what it takes to make a new business on a scale such as this, work. With all that is entailed in creating such a unique product from scratch, and all the unforeseen obstacles that Ron has had to overcome. These headers are not just a bunch of tubing bent and welded together. They are truly hand crafted works of art.

I know that to ask people that have been waiting for more than a year to be patient may be too much to ask, but Ron will make good on every order, even if he has to sacrifice everything to do it. It means that much to him.

John

[73ta]

While I wish Ron the best, a bad business plan and no money coupled with good intentions don't make for success. The final nail in the coffin is also lack of communication. I think we all gave about a year longer than we would give anybody else in the aftermarket parts world. Just look in the complaints forum!

[Larry Navarro]

Originally Posted by gearbanger

Kiss it Larry!

[TUNNEL PORT]

Here's a long one & will bring you more up to date than you wanted. Read the whole thing.
Let me start off with a little history on this project. I'll mention some of the things that were working against me from the very first post about the HO Tri-Y's back in Feb 04' & is continuing to today & most likely will carry on for some time just because they are "Jerk's" (putting it mildly) & hope or know that most won't see there hypocritical comments or actions. That is easy to see but over looked by most because they just casually read the posts & don't recall everything said prior.
I need to make this clear first. I intended to bring something to the Pontiac community that was badly needed for the 2nd gen birds & not so much for any other body style. Due to the lack of ground clearance & would be just as needed as a good fitting intake for lack of hood clearance on the birds. Which the Tomahawk took care of that issue.
I did not set out with a goal to compete with or out power any other header co. It was my intent to get something that was far better than a R/A exhaust manifold & as close to a good header as possible. All while not having any of the bad issues that were commonly thought of when using header's.
Obviously no one had any intent to do such an item not even Ken Crocie at H.O. that had the HO Tri-Y's long ago. That I had planned to use as a model or a starting point for my headers.
From the very first posts I had negative comments from the "Worlds Greatest Header Co" cheer leaders. You know the same guys, mostly two post on almost 95% of the header questions but there are a few others that post less. They all post to try & get the guy to buy one of there buddy's or sponsor's header's. No matter that there twice as much as what the guy had asked about in the post & ram the "there the best" down there throat.
Best is an opinion. If one of to "like" products has just one thing better than the other, it would be best right?! So lets say D**g's headers fit better than H**ker headers but H**ker's perform better than D**g's than there both better than each other? So which is the best again?
When I arranged to have the first run done with a header co back in 04'. I had no intent on changing professions. I had a good job & was happy with what I had. Although Im sure that 90% of the guys on the forums made more or at least as much as I did a year. I had no intention to make a profit of any sizable amount other than me getting what I would put into it back. I also didn't plan on getting it back in a quick "charge as much as possible" at first mentality either. I knew it could take years at meaning less small amounts monthly to get it. I had in mind a very affordable price to start with & once I was paid back even bring it down more.
Since Im a crook, don't take my word for it! Look at the first few threads on CP, PY & TAC & it will confirm everything.
Next I made sure that I would keep the identity of that header co to my self until all headers were completed & delivered with all problems worked out. This was because I know & I'm sure many others know that there is most likely issues that would be identified from actual use on the first few pieces of any product that comes out. Example's would be the 1st IA blocks, Wenzler heads, E-heads, Tomahawk intake & many others.
I wanted to make sure any problems were caught & worked out before revealing the manufacturer. This was to protect the manufacturer & make sure that nothing reflects badly on them in any way & no other reason.
Im sure that "Ace" Ken Brewewer can agree with that. Since he had his money & time into bringing a new product out. Then had a few guys innocently inquiring about another product that looked the same opened a whole unneeded problem with his manufacturer. I don't know Ace personally but respect him for his efforts & have no reason not to. But a person that seems to associate with "Dave" is one of the guys that has made it a point to make hypocritical statements about my product while cheer leading for the other header over mine.
Dave was also the one that acted like a kindergardener know it all & exposed who was making them for me. Now I never said who it was for the reasons I just stated. Now anything that said about the headers they made being wrong or problems. I'll make sure its dicused publically & just how they had messed up or tried to cut corners or add a flaw to the design.
He also keeps trying to make it seem as if I was the cause of the problems in the first run with the header co. Which he clearly "don't know jack" & is only getting his info from the owner of the co that cant admit to an error of any kind & wouldn't admit it to a friend like him any way! Keep in mind this header co not only already had all the machinery, tooling, materials & many employees that knew what they were doing. Take over ten months to finally get the wrong header made! That was originally to only take 1 1/2 months start to finish.
Instead they had delay after delay. Each time I "Sugar Coated" in any post that was an update to the few guy's that paid up front. I did so all through the first run no matter how many times they tried to stall, make up excuses & mess ups they did that cost me 1000's more to fix. I protected them & basically made it all seem as if they were running into minor problems. All the while it was totally opposite.
By the way it was to be a min 25 sets to get the header co to do it. Less than half got on board even after the dead line. I had come up with the rest myself so it would end right then. Even with all the coaxing I did than min wasn't meet for months. So My bills started to not get paid back then & continue to today. Because I put everyone trust in me ahead of me my family & life style.
The other jerks range from guys quoting comparisons that are not the same but have tried to pass it as such on the posts to get sales away. Like "2mph this & 2 tenths that" that have Nothing to do with my headers! To just guy's that don't have an open mind & refuse to think that its better than a RA manifold. I can post as much dyno results to try & pursued them to try & consider it. But then the close-minded guys come on that point to the dyno results that just equaled or beat a popular 4-tube header from a well respected Pontiac performance shop. Then say it don't prove a thing, its not track testing!
So you can say I am quite used to not getting support were it is needed. I tried to get an add on one of the forums back in 04' so that I could get more sale for the header co & be able to build up working capital to keep going. But that didn't happen because it was a product that would conflict with what another company had an add. HMMMMMMMM.... yet months later that same Forum now has 3 different adds for three different co's that sell & make there own heads & blocks. Oh they also sell the same headers that co does that I couldn't get an add next too?! Is that hypocritical? Maybe!
I had an add on TAC that a bunch of guys (won't say jerks because you may be one of them) gave him grief over. So I told him to take it off so he wouldn't be linked or bothered. It was my decision not his.
Now back to this run & present. Everything listed above still holds true. Still none of my bills been paid. Credit sucked from first run thanks to that great header co & there BS for ten months. I never even got close to starting to make a cent back from the first run. Oh & after test fitting over 50 sets of headers on my now motorless Formula. Just to make sure I didn't get a bad set from that header co that couldn't admit to the problems after proven. I still didn't have a set for myself!
Since I had no credit & no one would even think of a loan to me. I sold all rare & common Pontiac parts including complete 474 RA V motor that I have been building since early 90's. Ironically all I needed was a set of headers for it Hmmm...
Almost lost the house & anything else that could be thought of 4 times. I don't have great marriage or time with daughter because Im either working on the headers, fixing a problem, finding a fix or just be thinking about the headers in the middle of what family time I could manage.
So just like I held true to all the guys in the first run Im doing the same here.
Now the status today is.
Other than the three D-ports delivered back in late Nov before other problems arose. I sent one set to Canada & one to NY on Wed 6/14 along with one local (I helped in stall) & one in the next town Vallejo. I have 4 sets a the coater. Two from last week that I went to pick up & drop off two others. But they were coated but not polished yet. So those two will be ready next week & they are going to deliver them to me on Wed or Thur because they were not ready when I got there.
Which works out better anyway because Im using the neighbors truck because I cant get my totaled mini van (accident 1/4) registered anymore. I will have 2-3 D-ports ready for them to take back with them when they deliver the others.
I email everyone the night I have them built to let them know the exact day I will ship them. Then they get an email with the trk# both from myself & UPS since some spam filters block the UPS email.
73TA
I said you could pick them up last week end & you could have. Since I picked up 4 sets from the coater on Fri & I even took some pics. My digital camera is MIA & think it was stolen from my van sometime the week before. I took what I was hoping to be pics good enough for my web site as a sales pic. But I guess my camera phone is cr@p. Because they were blurry but sill good enough for proof if anything. If I have to post blurry pics as proof I will.
Also It was not a bad plan as you think. I did the same thing I did before I spoke to all the header co's in late 03' & early 04'. I spent countless hours on the phone, computer & driving to get exact amounts for all costs. I made sure that no header co was going to BS me with costs & allowed me to not pay 2-3 times more to get them like they all tried to get.
So when it came time for me to get a new header co. I was all ready working on figures to do it myself. Just in case the new header co sold or just stopped. Then Id be ready & hoped to have a way to get the cash for it.
That little ESP or paranoia paid off because when the new header co bailed out I had all the research & contacts ready. Other wise that month of 4-6 hours a day of research would have put me that much farther behind. Turns out I was right almost to the $ on start up. I had gotten 2 months working capital over. REMEMBER I have no credit so there was no more ever coming. I got it through family & what ever I owned that I could sell. So your comment about effecting my credit... well I had to chuckle just a little. Because I don't think it would hurt my 410 FICA score much & Im sure you probably know that aint getting me a $5 loan from a $10 rich homeless guy on the corner.
The only thing that caused the whole back up was that dam tubing distibutor that delivered the wrong tubing. I had posted about it back in June- July? 05' that no matter how I tried or the 1000's I spent trouble shooting it, it would not get the bend without concaving or busting. No matter how many times I brought it up to them they assured me "they have guys bending it all the time". BS! maybe a larger CLR but not the tight CLR I had.
I went through the same distributor as the header co did. Only since I was farther away they had the distributor in my area get it for me. Turns out the substituted it for a Hot Roll which wont elongate as much (brittle). So I wasted 1 1/2 months @ 3k & the 1000's I used to needlessly trouble shoot. I was able to bend the same day that I got the correct tubing. Thus time + $ used for nothing = nothing.
The ironic thing is that the 2-3 sales I got this year went towards repairs.
Gear banger
you mentioned a 2" version. There is such a beast. Two actually. One I had made pieces for long ago when I was waiting for more 1 3/4" to show up. & the other was the pattern. I gave both away last week. One to a friend to track test & keep & the other is to a very well known guy in the Pontiac community. The jig & just a few pieces are still hear. That will be introduced soon after the orders are filled.
Final
Its not at all hard to understand this part. So its the most important part so read it carefully. Because I most likely will not post again for a while.
No business can function or function quickly with no working capital. I can make 2-3 a week alone or with help double to triple it with 1-2 guys. The fact of life is no one works for free except me. So one sale can hire one guy for a week or so two sales either the same guy two weeks or two guys. Now I'll keep building them. But if there's no help & all I can do is get a small amount out. Also take the chance there's no tool failure I cant fix without the funds to do it.
I am just guessing that I have gone slightly out of my way & kept true to the goal. Rest assured you can put to rest the conspiracy theories about guys getting headers before you that have just ordered. The only way that could happen is if it was one of the extras & those are sent out last on those models.
So its only hurting you & everyone else if there are no sales. I don't want to tune out any squeaky wheels & work on the quiet ones because they are not slowing the production. So it would only seem fare to them to do it that way.
If there were just three sales I can have everyone past & newer done in 2 weeks or less guaranteed. And be working on sets that haven't even been sold yet.
There that all there is to it. I had to "Sugar Coat" things on the first run. I have not & will not do it on this one since I'm the only one to account for. There was much more to the story but I don't feel I need to put every aspect out there.

[73ta]

"So your comment about effecting my credit... well I had to chuckle just a little. Because I don't think it would hurt my 410 FICA score much & Im sure you probably know that aint getting me a $5 loan from a $10 rich homeless guy on the corner."

Ron, you need to re-read my two above posts. No mention of your credit!

[TUNNEL PORT]

Originally Posted by 73ta

Ron, you need to re-read my two above posts. No mention of your credit!

POST #31 in this thread by you 73ta

Well if I don't either get headers or a refund I'll be seeing the local court. Even if I can't get any money or product in the near future, I'll put a blemish on his credit record and the title of any property he might own, that he'll have to clear up someday. The longer it takes, the more interest he'll pay on the money owed!

I would guess that not many guys pay much attendion to what they post at the time because of rage, as the others just tunning in who read it would.

[Robert Williams]

Ron, thanks for posting all that info, not much there that i didn't know already. Anyway when you get things going real good and all your back orders are filled i will be wanting another set of the headers later this year. The first set i have on my 76 T-A and they are by FAR the finest set of headers i have ever purchased.

[TUNNEL PORT]

By the way I have "ONE" set of old stock from the first run. It is a O-port Auto only header for F-body's. It's never been used & its coated. It can be mailed out on Wed of this week.
Its a set that I used for mock up to reference the mods I needed to do on my new patterns to fix the things that were not done right on the first run.
Its already been test fitted during the mock ups I did. So I wont have any of the mess ups that header co had on previous headers.

So if you have an auto car & don't want to wait untill I get back to the O-port F-body's in 2 weeks, I dont need it any more.

[robscar]

Hey Ron, glad to see you posting again and reviewing some of your past experiences and problems that bring us to this point in time. If your posting it must mean you have some good news for us. I see that you have or are going to ship some D posts to various people, but you made no mention of O ports. Are they still on the schedule?

I hope everyone who complains that the pontiac community gets left out when new parts are designed and produced will stop and think for a minute what Ron has gone through. I'll bet people have called him names, threatened him both physically and legally, lied about him, and who knows what else. If you don't think it happened, just look at some other posts and people who look to be offended by anything and nothing, now throw money into the equation. Do we want our headers, hell yes we do! but let's think before we go off the deep end and start stringing Ron up by his nads. He is trying to do right by us all. Who among us would consider trying to do a project like this? Who among us has considered being a partner in a project like this? Not many I would venture.

The point is Ron has risked everything he has and is on the point of success or failure. Since cash flow has become a very serious problem I say all those who can, try and contribute a little cash or time to keep Ron afloat. Any amount will help. Since there may be issues with bank account balances I suggest money orders or paypal if he can accept that method. I will start the ball by sending a money order for 50 bucks tomorrow. When I do this I do not expect to see the money back. I really want to see Ron succeed in this endevor because you never know what other projects he may have up his sleeve if he can keep going! whether or not you are in line for this product consider that this man needs our help.

Remember when I say all this that I was probably the first to plunk down money for the A body headers and others will get theirs before me. Am I mad, no because i understand Ron's cashflow and squeaky wheel issues. I know mine will be coming soon. Very, very soon I hope. Am I a fool for send a bit more cash, maybe, but I think about all of the time and effort Ron has expended that a little bit more from me isn't so hard after all.

[70pontiaction]

PM Sent!

[Larry Navarro]

Thanks for the POSITIVE responses guys!
I'm sure this will give Ron a bit of stress relief and a boost of confidence, that his hard work and dedication will payoff.

[TUNNEL PORT]

Hi Robert,
Thanks, I know you know most of it just like Larry. I was just hoping it was readable because I just got in from working at the shop at 1:30am & tried to type it up before bed. As you can see from the time stamp on the post of 2:39am I was tired & probably missed something.

Later this year when your ready will be just in time for the other things I told you about. That I'll have ready. So it will be great timing.

rob
Thanks & yes Im on schedule. I just installed a set of ballsockets on one set before coating. I liked the fit & will add that to the list soon as standard. But the version that I just sketched out & fooled with this morning will give more clearance than the ones he had me install on his set. I'll just have to get the machine & tooling for it. Luckily that same machine will make the Y's & D shapes also. Only it will take 30sec using the machine instead of 15min to make one Y buy hand. Boy that would be nice. Nice how the header co's charge $15 to $34 for a Y collector that took them 30sec-1 min tops to make it.

I had time for a few posts today because I'm the bad guy at the in-laws today. Because I was at the shop until the food was on the BBQ. Then only spent an hour after there before starting to get back to the shop. So I got reamed & just went home pissed.

70pontiaction
Pm sent

Thanks Larry

By the way Happy Fathers Day everyone

[ramair3]

Hey Ron,

I just read you last post on PY forum. You mention adding ball sockets to a pair of headers. I suggested doing this when I placed my order. I don't recall what was said during our conversation, but I am still interested having that done. I am not sure where you are on my set, but I would be willing send you a pair of ball sockets and have you weld them on or I can send you money so you can get a set for me.

The ones I was looking at are on Summit racing web site under part #FLO-15930.

Let me know asap.

Thanks,

Tim

PS My order did not include coating