[i82much]

i paid 850 labor for a ring and bearing job on my 505 a few years ago. just a light hone and reassemble with same pistons.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Originally Posted by 389

You should have a few real good engine builders in Texas..

Len Williams is in Eastern central Oklahoma, a bit of a drive from Austin, butNOT for the amount of $$$ saved for absolute high quality work!!!

Someone did post here, recently, that talked to him. He, at that time was having difficulty getting some parts, slowing down his normal build time to a crawl. I don’t know about now though....

[grandam1979]

Originally Posted by b-man

Here’s what I spent building a 421 HO back in 2015. I built this engine to look like a stock 421 but with a few probably overkill upgrades on the inside. Link to 421 build thread:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=774638

This listing might help give you at least some idea of what a typical competent machine shop charges and the number of new parts required to do the job right.

Of course parts prices and labor will vary depending on where you live and how many upgrades over stock you’re willing to pay for. New forged rods and pistons as well as stainless steel valves, new exhaust valve seats and valve springs are pretty much mandatory to do the job right in my opinion.

I don’t think spending between 6 and 7 grand on your 400 rebuild is unreasonable when you replace all the wear components and upgrade to better components than the engine left the factory with. Reusing the original cast rods, 2-piece valves, valve springs, pushrods and rockers would be out of the question and signs of a cheap budget rebuild.

Most of the parts prices listed are with tax and shipping included.

Parts purchased:

1964 421 Block, crank, heads, oil pan and timing cover - $1475.00

1964 Tri-Power Intake Manifold, Bare - Trade

1964 Water Pump, Rebuilt - $92.00

New Harmonic Balancer - $143.00

1964 GTO OEM Chrome Valve Covers & Repro Breather Cap - $90.00

Rebuild/replate Tri-Power carbs and misc. repro and genuine parts (throttle cable bracket, linkage, vacuum & PCV fittings, choke tubes, air cleaner set) to complete the setup, includes buying a 1964 GTO auto trans center carb outright - $967.67

Misc Tri-Power carb spacers, studs & nuts, base gaskets, restored plug wire looms, OEM 45 deg brass heater hose fitting - $161.50

1962 Pontiac Big Car Aircleaner, Excellent Unrestored Condition - $592.00

16 ea. Manton Pushrods - $230.73

16 ea. 73627-16 Crower 1.5:1 Enduro Stainless Steel Roller Rocker Arms - $478.90
8 ea. Custom 26cc Reverse Dome Ross Racing Pistons w/Pins & Spirolocks - $784.98

1 ea. Cloyes Tru-Roller Timing Set - $86.70
16 ea. H-O Racing VS-11 Valve Springs - Trade
8 ea. Crower Forged Connecting Rods, stock Pontiac dimensions - $900.00
1 ea. NOS Pontiac 9779068 camshaft - $200.00
16ea. Johnson 951R Hydraulic Lifters - $97.00
1 ea. Melling Select 60 psi Oil Pump & Driveshaft - $60.00
1 ea. Butler head gaskets & Misc Engine Gaskets - $75.00
1 ea. BOP Viton Rear Main Seal - $58.00
Misc. Gasket Sealers, Engine Paint, Spark Plugs, Break-In Oil & Gasoline - $110.88

Parts supplied by the machine shop:

8 ea. 6000SG S.I. Stainless Intake Valves - 1.960" x 4.970" - $128.00
8 ea. 6001SG S.I. Stainless Exhaust Valves - 1.660" x 4.970" - $128.00
16 ea. 6523 SBI Cast Valve Guides - $24.00
8 ea. 30677 Durabond Valve Seat - Exhaust - $48.00
2 ea. 30723 Durabond Valve Seat - Intake - $12.00
16 ea. OS810 Pioneer Viton Valve Stem Seals - $28.00
16 ea. 607-STA Isky Valve Spring Retainers - $92.00
16 ea. 101-7101 ARP Rocker Arm Stud Kit - $48.00
8 ea. 90922-1 Crower Custom Piston Pin Bushings - $100.00
16 ea. Helicoil Insert 7/16-14 - $16.00
2 ea. Helicoil Insert 3/8-16 - $1.50
4 ea. EPC18-B Brass Expansion Plug - $8.00
8 ea. 43M5529-010 Engine Pro Moly Piston Ring Set-4.125-010 - $120.00
1 ea. Clevite Main, rod and cam bearings - $287.40

$7644.26 Parts Total

Machine shop labor:

Cook/Clean & Blast Block - $67.00
Magnaflux - $34.00
Check Align Hone - $40.00
Cylinder Bore 2X & Hone W/Torque Plate, 4.120 Did Not Clean, Went To 4.135" - $369.00
Surface Block W/BHJ - 10.215" - $179.00
Block - Final Rinse After Machining - $39.00
Crankshaft Grind-H.P. Middle Spec - $129.00
Crankshaft Heat Treat - $195.00
Rod & Piston Work Bore For Pins Bushings -1.040" - $140.00
Balancing Job - Neutral - Make Flex Plate Neutral - $155.00
Complete Valve Job & Resurface - $309.00
Head Work Set Up Springs And Assemble Heads - $75.00
Clean & Mag Heads W/VJ - $45.00
Install seats - $67.50
Install False Guides - $80.00
Machine For Positive Seals - $36.00
Install Helicoils $20.00
Machine For Screw-In Studs, Helicoil For 7/16, Cut Bosses .250" - $179.00
Machine Valve Head Diameters - Intake 1.930"/Exhaust 1.645" - $96.00


Machine Shop Labor Total - $2254.45

Grand Total, Parts & Machine Shop Labor - $9898.76

As you can see, this rebuild/restoration of an antique Pontiac performance engine easily eclipsed the 10 thousand dollar mark.

I'm sure there are some things that I left out, I had been collecting parts for this 421 for about 5 years and some parts had been sitting in my garage waiting for a place to go for 10 to 20 years. I didn't include what I was charged for cleaning and assembling the engine, this cost is between my friend and myself.

There are a few pieces that I purchased that I really didn't need, but I wanted them so.....they added unnecessary cost. Just the initial price of the 421 block, crank and heads is about $1000 more than you'd pay for a common 400 or 455. The Crower forged rods were purchased way back in the early 1990s, so they probably cost now about 2/3rds of what I paid back then. The Crower roller rockers really weren't a necessity, but finding the correct stamped factory rockers would have cost about $150 anyway and I decided to substitute a top-quality part instead.

A lot of your cost was buying parts looks like over half. He has his engine already.

[i82much]

OP posted once about a completely noncontroversial topic, started a huge discussion with widely varying opinions from people completely speculating about what he actually needs, and has since run away screaming, found himself a nice a Ukrainian bride, and is currently living in Kyrgyzstan. Right now he is researching doing an LS swap and eating goat milk yogurt and potato noodle soup on the back porch of his yurt.

Goodbye and good luck, sir. Say hi to Tatyana for me!

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by tom s

I just had a set of RA V heads rebuilt.all new valves,guides valve seals,4 seats, etc.Parts were $395,labor for valve job,guides,seals,pressure test heads,install seats etc was $770.They were able to reuse my springs and retainers.

That seems about the norm for heads to rebuild them properly.

Of course that doesn't include the cost of purchasing a set of "those" heads LOL

The last SBC I did, which everyone says is the cheapest engine to build, set me back over $6,000, closer to $7k.
And I already had the block, the crank, the heads, the intake, the carb, the distributor, and the exhaust manifolds.

That was 5 years ago and was a flat tappet build.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by 389

You should have a few real good engine builders in Texas..

Barney Moravits @ T & P Machine in San Antonio, WAS a good Pontiac engine builder. Built lots of racing engines. Billy Joe Moravits was RU in Stock, at the '78 Tyler IHRA points race, where my wife won the bracket class.

Assuming that Billy Joe probably ran several Barney built engines, over the years, in various classes, at tracks all over Texas.

Read that Barney retired. But, if I were you, I'd try to contact either Barney or Billy Joe, & ask them who they'd recommend. Assuming most Pontiac engine builders know the others in their area.

You can do a search here for Barney Moravits, & find him mentioned several times.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=566620

I don't have CURRENT contact info for either guy.

https://www.bbb.org/us/tx/san-antoni...hop-0825-20465

This listing shows phone numbers for both guys. Have no idea if the numbers are current.

https://clustrmaps.com/person/Moravits-2ateks

[b-man]

Originally Posted by grandam1979

A lot of your cost was buying parts looks like over half. He has his engine already.

Note that the cost to check, clean and assemble as well as break in the cam on a test stand wasn’t included in my list of expenses.

In most cases that adds around $1500 to the complete build cost.

[400 Lemans]

http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-ek1177b This kit was a little over 800 bucks a month ago. Now look.

[John Milner]

I just rebuilt the YS 400 engine for my 71 GTO. I assembled the engine myself. I also machined and re-worked the heads myself. So, I was able to save some money doing that. It looks like I have right at $2,200 in everything. This is how I spent the money:

Parts:
Main bearings: $85.99, Rod bearings: $61.99, Gasket set: $95.99, Link Belt Timing set: $23.99, Valve Springs: $141.99, Rings: $80.99, Speed Pro forged pistons: $380, Water pump: $63.99, Oil pump: $66.37, Hardened oil pump shaft: $12.99, BOP 1 pc pan gasket: $59.99, Best rope seal: $19.99, Ferrea Stainless valves: $190, ARP Rod bolts: $80.31, Cam/lifters: $167.83. Parts total: $1,532.41

Machine work:
Vat, bore, hone, install cam bearings: $250, Deck block: $125, Turn crank: $125, Resize rods, $100, Press on pistons: $40. Machine Shop Total: $640.00

I cleaned and reused the timing cover, valley pan, balancer, oil pan, valve covers, bolts, push rods, retainers, keepers, windage tray, rocker splash shields and rocker arms.

You could spend more money by balancing the rotating assembly, line hoaning, head work, and having someone assemble the engine. Plus you could spend a lot more on different parts, such as hydraulic roller camshaft/lifters, forged rods, more expensive pistons, etc.

This engine is nothing more than a stock rebuild for a driver.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 400 Lemans

http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-ek1177b This kit was a little over 800 bucks a month ago. Now look.

Crazy isn't it? This whole mess is affecting everyone. I've already been at the point of just not ordering stuff when it wasn't in stock. Now I'm getting to a point of not buying anything until these prices get back to normal, don't care if it's in stock or not.

That may or may not happen but it will at least be another 3 years of this crap until we find out. I see more companies going out of business the next couple years if this keeps up. Shame.

[geeteeohguy]

It cost me twice the amount of $$$ to rebuild a set of Pontiac cylinder heads as it did my 383 small block Chevy engine. And the heads were done 12 years ago. Spent $2800 rebuilding the 389 in my '65 GTO in 1981 and it's still in there running (blueprinted) and I spent $1800 in 1988 on the stock rebuild of my '67 GTO engine. I would think doing a Pontiac today the right way would run parallel to what b-man posted. A lot depends on how good the block and crank are, etc. And heads....don't forget them. new valves, seats, guides, etc. can add up.

[Brianbigoats]

I will know soon my engine should be ready next week
I know that i increased my bill a little this week when the engine builder said my cam was too small which was correct since i had gotten it when i just was going to rebuild it a a 400 not make it a 461 As far as i was told the price should be around $3500 I supplied almost all of the parts(using E heads) except Main Studs, and head gaskets, now he is adding a Schneider custom roller cam.

[Luiz]

I paid $23.5K for engine rebuild, bored and stroked, with all new high performance parts. Plus I replaced the 3 speed automatic tranny with a new 5 speed manual tremec. The only thing kept the same was the original engine block.

In hindsight I should had just purchased a whole new crate engine and sold the original engine. But my thinking was a restomod but the more I play around with the car, the more it is becoming a hotrod.

Luiz

[Jack Ferris]

If your wanting to use the stocker parts with simple upgrades like an HFT cam, better than cast pistons ect, 3500.00 is a reasonable dollar figure at my shop. The more upgrades the more you spend.

[1969400HO]

7K seems a bit out of line for a generic stock refresh on a 400, maybe $4.5K .
I seen stock rebuilds in my area as of last year less then 4K easily but I am not knowing what all s put into them either.
Your complete engine stock or near that, refresh, isn't more than $4.5K IMO, about anywhere.
Where it adds up when you say bigger cam-cut heads to receive big lift springs, balance rotating assembly, (a Must do) new exhaust seats if you think those are really needed, .
A good rebuild w torque plate, line hones, deck block & heads what's really needed etc, etc, I don't see it above that.
I Highly advise you rebuild the damper too, 50+ years old rubber in it like all rubber in these cars are suspect and usually crumbling or deteriorating.
Cliff Ruggles after I spoke w him on this, suggests stock type timing chains, yet I'm mixed on a decision so I would use the high dollar one Butler sells where you change the vlv/crank to 2 or 4 degree advance moving torque a bit lower.

YOU need to bring your engine in directly to a machine shop!!

And controlled 100% of what goes on and what pieces go in it, or if specialty shop pis and delivers it YOU still need to control its full schedule and activity!!

Get engine rebuild Price BEFORE you commit to this specialty shop or the machine shop.

They the specialty shop, have a right to add$$$ to this as this is there livelihood so if they install or pull it that adds into the cost.
Else they would be in business,

Part of this if they are restoring the car the engine build part may be OK with them you control this but R&R it will cost too and they won't warranty the engine whatsoever either.

Its odd in the mind of a specialty shop, to have a shop pull it, you pick / drop off when done and they install it so remember that aspect.

7K is reasonable If they are putting a stroker kit in it and doing head mods to accommodate the extra things like bigger spring perches or pushrod hole elongate etc, as a kit is at least $2.5K yet has other parts in it like slugs/rings, wrist pins etc.
BTW have your Rods-wrist pins made into floaters so rods will need bushings. Thats cheap labor.
So once done a fresh 400engine with a few minor parts will satisfy wonderfully.
And of course the break-in Oil iS essential and filter-oil change in the recommended increments too!
Definitely get roller tips rockers and the good ones, SS stamped, from butler with roller pivot I had on my 69 400 were just fine!

[vertigto]

My 400 (406) rebuild with forged pistons/rods, Ultradyne cam, roller rockers and dyno session was $6K. FWIW...403hp/482trq with 3 tube headers and minor tweaking.

Clean
Bore/Hone
Deck
Replace Seats
Valve Job
Surface
Balance
Grind Shaft
File Rings
Install Cam Bearings
Install Pistons on Rods
Line Hone
Assemble
ICON Forged Piston
Hasting Rings
Skat Rods
Clevite Rod Bearings
Clevite Main Bearings
Melling Oil Pump
Bullet Cam
Bullet Lifters
Fel Pro Gaskets
Cloyes Timing Chain
Comp Retainers
LPC Locks
Comp Springs
LPC Rockers
Comp Studs
Dura Bond Cam Bearings
SBI EX Seats
Teflon Seals
ARP Head Bolts
Ferrea Stainless Steel Valves
oil/filter

[ftwmlp]

Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN

Len Williams is in Eastern central Oklahoma, a bit of a drive from Austin, butNOT for the amount of $$$ saved for absolute high quality work!!!

Someone did post here, recently, that talked to him. He, at that time was having difficulty getting some parts, slowing down his normal build time to a crawl. I don’t know about now though....

I chose Len Williams for my 389 rebuild, mostly because he was recommended in Jim Hand's book and because he is close to DFW, TX just outside of Tulsa, OK. The drive to Tulsa is not bad now that all the interchanges have been completed on North I35, should be able to do it in about 7-1/2 hrs (one way) from Austin. I have about $5800 in my build, including some extra for a sleeve to repair some bad rust in the "period correct" engine I bought used. Could not be happier with the quality of the product he produced for me. He has since moved this shop from the location I visited, but as I understand it, just a few miles away. If you are fan of old time machine shops, with "vintage" American Made machines, his was just that.
Mike Pearson