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Old 12-03-2021, 04:30 PM
tobephoto1 tobephoto1 is offline
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Default Cost to rebuild 1969 GTO 400 engine?

A shop that restores classic cars, says it will cost me $7,000 to rebuild my 1969 GTO 400 engine.

Theses days...I don't know if that's in line. What is a fair price without upgrades?

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Old 12-03-2021, 04:48 PM
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I'm not sure if that is realistic or not. What I will say(and maybe you have already thought of this) is that a lot of these places seem to send jobs like this to be done at a machine shop and then just mark up the machine shop's bill 30% to 40%. So, you just as well cut out the middle man and go talk to a reputable machine shop yourself.

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Old 12-03-2021, 05:51 PM
Goatracer1 Goatracer1 is offline
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I agree. There is NO reason you need a restoration shop to build your engine. You need a reliable engine builder. Make sure the shop knows that you want a stock engine rebuild and any internal changes you might want ( reduced compression for todays gas, high performance cam, roller rocker etc.). You can do your own research and detail the engine once it is done. All the restoration shops that I know of send out the engine rebuild to a professional. They have neither the tools nor the skill to do the job correctly. A good shop may even be able to run up your engine and break it in. Send it out yourself and save the money.

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Old 12-04-2021, 12:57 PM
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My last motor build of a 400 slightly warmed over with a first rate job was around $3500. I have one in the shop now and am expecting to pay $4500. Fingers crossed!!

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Old 12-04-2021, 01:55 PM
grandam1979 grandam1979 is offline
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If that’s a stock rod .030 over stock type build that is high I think. I assembled and ran a 428 on my test stand for a customer he had the heads done and all machine work done to shortblock and parts. I checked clearance on everything and assembled it. He had less than $3000.00 into it.

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Old 12-04-2021, 02:20 PM
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I brought my 400 to my local machine shop with a used 461 rotating assembly. Here is what he did:
Hot tank block and check for cracks.
Turn crank, balance assembly. Install supplied arp main studs and alighn hone mains.Bore bock .30 over and torque plate hone with my torque plate.
Install cam bearings.
Install kauffman lifter brace.
File fit hastings rings for nitrous.
Install freeze plugs.
Blueprint assembly and assemble short block using my supplied king race bearings.
So my machine shop bill was 2800 labor and I supplied about 3000 in parts not including heads or gaskets for a total of 5,800.00. I'm using kauffman highports so your iron heads will need machining as well. I think if your using your rotating assembly (minus pistons) and heads a fully assembled engine via machine shop would be between 4500-6000. That's basically what it should cost as long as you don't have any major issues.

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Old 12-04-2021, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandam1979 View Post
If that’s a stock rod .030 over stock type build that is high I think. I assembled and ran a 428 on my test stand for a customer he had the heads done and all machine work done to shortblock and parts. I checked clearance on everything and assembled it. He had less than $3000.00 into it.
I agree. Hard to say what exactly your engine needs, but if you have a complete 400 that needs a basic overbore and maybe the crank turned down, I can't see how you even get to 7k even upgrading to a roller cam and new rods and pistons.

It does add up quick and it all depends on what you can reuse and what your block, crank, and heads need. Take it to a good machine shop and find out exactly what you need.

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Old 12-04-2021, 02:43 PM
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Here’s what I spent building a 421 HO back in 2015. I built this engine to look like a stock 421 but with a few probably overkill upgrades on the inside. Link to 421 build thread:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=774638

This listing might help give you at least some idea of what a typical competent machine shop charges and the number of new parts required to do the job right.

Of course parts prices and labor will vary depending on where you live and how many upgrades over stock you’re willing to pay for. New forged rods and pistons as well as stainless steel valves, new exhaust valve seats and valve springs are pretty much mandatory to do the job right in my opinion.

I don’t think spending between 6 and 7 grand on your 400 rebuild is unreasonable when you replace all the wear components and upgrade to better components than the engine left the factory with. Reusing the original cast rods, 2-piece valves, valve springs, pushrods and rockers would be out of the question and signs of a cheap budget rebuild.

Most of the parts prices listed are with tax and shipping included.

Parts purchased:

1964 421 Block, crank, heads, oil pan and timing cover - $1475.00

1964 Tri-Power Intake Manifold, Bare - Trade

1964 Water Pump, Rebuilt - $92.00

New Harmonic Balancer - $143.00

1964 GTO OEM Chrome Valve Covers & Repro Breather Cap - $90.00

Rebuild/replate Tri-Power carbs and misc. repro and genuine parts (throttle cable bracket, linkage, vacuum & PCV fittings, choke tubes, air cleaner set) to complete the setup, includes buying a 1964 GTO auto trans center carb outright - $967.67

Misc Tri-Power carb spacers, studs & nuts, base gaskets, restored plug wire looms, OEM 45 deg brass heater hose fitting - $161.50

1962 Pontiac Big Car Aircleaner, Excellent Unrestored Condition - $592.00

16 ea. Manton Pushrods - $230.73

16 ea. 73627-16 Crower 1.5:1 Enduro Stainless Steel Roller Rocker Arms - $478.90
8 ea. Custom 26cc Reverse Dome Ross Racing Pistons w/Pins & Spirolocks - $784.98

1 ea. Cloyes Tru-Roller Timing Set - $86.70
16 ea. H-O Racing VS-11 Valve Springs - Trade
8 ea. Crower Forged Connecting Rods, stock Pontiac dimensions - $900.00
1 ea. NOS Pontiac 9779068 camshaft - $200.00
16ea. Johnson 951R Hydraulic Lifters - $97.00
1 ea. Melling Select 60 psi Oil Pump & Driveshaft - $60.00
1 ea. Butler head gaskets & Misc Engine Gaskets - $75.00
1 ea. BOP Viton Rear Main Seal - $58.00
Misc. Gasket Sealers, Engine Paint, Spark Plugs, Break-In Oil & Gasoline - $110.88

Parts supplied by the machine shop:

8 ea. 6000SG S.I. Stainless Intake Valves - 1.960" x 4.970" - $128.00
8 ea. 6001SG S.I. Stainless Exhaust Valves - 1.660" x 4.970" - $128.00
16 ea. 6523 SBI Cast Valve Guides - $24.00
8 ea. 30677 Durabond Valve Seat - Exhaust - $48.00
2 ea. 30723 Durabond Valve Seat - Intake - $12.00
16 ea. OS810 Pioneer Viton Valve Stem Seals - $28.00
16 ea. 607-STA Isky Valve Spring Retainers - $92.00
16 ea. 101-7101 ARP Rocker Arm Stud Kit - $48.00
8 ea. 90922-1 Crower Custom Piston Pin Bushings - $100.00
16 ea. Helicoil Insert 7/16-14 - $16.00
2 ea. Helicoil Insert 3/8-16 - $1.50
4 ea. EPC18-B Brass Expansion Plug - $8.00
8 ea. 43M5529-010 Engine Pro Moly Piston Ring Set-4.125-010 - $120.00
1 ea. Clevite Main, rod and cam bearings - $287.40

$7644.26 Parts Total

Machine shop labor:

Cook/Clean & Blast Block - $67.00
Magnaflux - $34.00
Check Align Hone - $40.00
Cylinder Bore 2X & Hone W/Torque Plate, 4.120 Did Not Clean, Went To 4.135" - $369.00
Surface Block W/BHJ - 10.215" - $179.00
Block - Final Rinse After Machining - $39.00
Crankshaft Grind-H.P. Middle Spec - $129.00
Crankshaft Heat Treat - $195.00
Rod & Piston Work Bore For Pins Bushings -1.040" - $140.00
Balancing Job - Neutral - Make Flex Plate Neutral - $155.00
Complete Valve Job & Resurface - $309.00
Head Work Set Up Springs And Assemble Heads - $75.00
Clean & Mag Heads W/VJ - $45.00
Install seats - $67.50
Install False Guides - $80.00
Machine For Positive Seals - $36.00
Install Helicoils $20.00
Machine For Screw-In Studs, Helicoil For 7/16, Cut Bosses .250" - $179.00
Machine Valve Head Diameters - Intake 1.930"/Exhaust 1.645" - $96.00


Machine Shop Labor Total - $2254.45

Grand Total, Parts & Machine Shop Labor - $9898.76

As you can see, this rebuild/restoration of an antique Pontiac performance engine easily eclipsed the 10 thousand dollar mark.

I'm sure there are some things that I left out, I had been collecting parts for this 421 for about 5 years and some parts had been sitting in my garage waiting for a place to go for 10 to 20 years. I didn't include what I was charged for cleaning and assembling the engine, this cost is between my friend and myself.

There are a few pieces that I purchased that I really didn't need, but I wanted them so.....they added unnecessary cost. Just the initial price of the 421 block, crank and heads is about $1000 more than you'd pay for a common 400 or 455. The Crower forged rods were purchased way back in the early 1990s, so they probably cost now about 2/3rds of what I paid back then. The Crower roller rockers really weren't a necessity, but finding the correct stamped factory rockers would have cost about $150 anyway and I decided to substitute a top-quality part instead.

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Old 12-04-2021, 03:06 PM
Formulas Formulas is offline
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Your much better off directing a engine builder yourself because a restoration shop will probably go the cheapest route IE. when the builder askes restow shop what do you want,
They will say bone stock cheaply so as to maximise their profit, they may not say last part out loud

and what that means is reused stock rods not even resized hanging on 8 eyebrow cast pistons, knurle valve guides with stock valve seals marginal valve grind and reused stock springs luckily shimmed, chinese lifters that will malfunction on your third drive

you most likely will end up dissatisfied with this approach and feel cheated

I am a fan of doing it yourself but i started doing that around 1976 you will stub your toe now and again but overall its worth it

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Old 12-04-2021, 03:30 PM
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You should have a few real good engine builders in Texas..

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Old 12-04-2021, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-man View Post
Here’s what I spent building a 421 HO back in 2015.


Grand Total, Parts & Machine Shop Labor - $9898.76

As you can see, this rebuild/restoration of an antique Pontiac performance engine easily eclipsed the 10 thousand dollar mark.
That's a very thorough description, great info.

Here's where I tend to think the OP can get by for much less.

http://www.lenwilliamsautomachine.co...ong_Block.html

That's outright, $5700. From the sound of the original post, the OP may have a complete 400 with block, crank, rods, heads, timing cover, oil filter adapter, oil pan, etc. Depending on what the OP finds when his engine is disassembled and what parts he can and/or wants to reuse, it seems like he could get by for less than the $5700 that Len Williams wants for a complete long block with all those items included?


Last edited by i82much; 12-04-2021 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 12-04-2021, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i82much View Post
That's a very thorough description, great info.

Here's where I tend to think the OP can get by for much less.

http://www.lenwilliamsautomachine.co...ong_Block.html

That's outright, $5700. From the sound of the original post, the OP may have a complete 400 with block, crank, rods, heads, timing cover, oil filter adapter, oil pan, etc. Depending on what the OP finds when his engine is disassembled and what parts he can and/or wants to reuse, it seems like he could get by for less than the $5700 that Len Williams wants for a complete long block with all those items included?
My description includes the cost of a somewhat expensive 421 long block core and some pricey Tri-Power parts ($600 air cleaner), so my nearly 10k outlay isn’t totally representative of what a more common 4-barrel 400 rebuild would cost.

Sifting through my post will show in general what parts and labor costs might be incurred in doing a first-rate rebuild on many Pontiac V8s.

I still think 6 to 7k is what you’re going to end up paying to rebuild it correctly from the carb right down to the oil pan using new parts and top quality machine work.

Anyone looking into a quality rebuild should make up a detailed list of what parts they want replaced during the rebuilding process and what machining operations they expect to be performed. Then ask the builder to detail exactly what parts and machine work will be included in their price. A detailed list, not simply being told they’re going to include and do everything.

For 7k you should expect a ton of new high quality parts and machine work that includes boring and honing the block using a torque plate.

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Old 12-04-2021, 04:54 PM
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It's on the high side, but sometimes you need to be willing to pay a bit more if you trust that the work will be done properly.

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Old 12-04-2021, 06:17 PM
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My 400 rebuild within last two years was close to $5000. Mostly stock. I agree, take it to a machine shop and discuss with them. They may even be the ones you can have build it too. You'll get an upfront cost and no middlemen. With the other guy, he's not a machinist or a builder and is guessing. He may come back at you and say it ended up $9 grand.

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Old 12-04-2021, 11:15 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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Its not a little high, its way high. You can buy a engine outright for that money.

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Old 12-04-2021, 11:34 PM
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You already have a complete engine.Custom pistons and forged rods about $1400.Rebuild your heads fully,$1500.You will want a NEW valley pan,new oil pump and timing set.FTC and lifters won’t break the bank.If you stay out of roller cams and roller rockers you should be able to get it done under $5000.JMHO,try to find a good machine shop that builds a small amount of engines and one close enough to visit.Tom

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Old 12-04-2021, 11:48 PM
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From my experience building these things, B-man is pretty close to on the money and very similar to how I approach a build if you want it done right. It doesn't have to be a big HP build to reach these price tags. Even with a complete engine sitting there, the only parts I use is the block, the crank, and a bare set of heads. Maybe the intake and carb.

Just doing a set of used iron heads alone always seems to get me up around $1000 at a minimum. I don't consider them done correctly, and wouldn't expect them to last unless they have all new guides, new stainless valves, new seats, positive seals etc etc.... The last thing I want after a build is an oil sucker and if the heads aren't done properly that's what you get.

From there it adds up, with block work, and the fact that I won't use 50 year old rods in an engine. The cost to mag and resize them with new bolts gets you more than part way to a new forged set that'll be stronger anyway. And I always have those checked as well, and usually end up resizing the big end and most often than not the small end needs tweaking for proper pin clearance.

Even a budget flat tappet cam isn't really budget with me because I end up nitriding the camshaft and using more expensive lifters with EDM holes for some pressure lube on the lobes.

It just goes on and on. You'd be surprised how quickly things add up, especially for quality work, even on a low HP build. But in the end I know I have an engine that will last and perform the way I'd expect it to.

Best of luck, find yourself a good machinist that cares about what he does.

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Old 12-05-2021, 03:36 AM
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Top quality engine parts from Butler or Kaufman (and filling in with Summit when money can be saved) is up $2,000 from pre-COVID prices. What was $5,000 in top quality parts to complete a build is now $7,000 with iron heads -- or close to $9,000 with ported aluminum heads (price is closer because of subtracting iron head work not done). This gives you the Butler stroker kit, hydraulic roller cam, top quality lifters, etc... on down the list but no labor. An example of how prices have increased would be a FelPro KS2616 engine gasket set that a little over a year ago was $56.00, six months ago was $86.00 and the last one ordered a few weeks ago was $129.99 from Summit.

Bart's rocker arms that cost him $478.90 are now $669.95 at Butler and more at Summit coming in at $739.99.

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  #19  
Old 12-05-2021, 09:10 PM
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I am building a 455 NOW. looking about 2900. Reusing many parts I already had and minimal block work needed. If somebody can't re-build a 400 back to current specs with a little cam under $5000 ...they r doing something wrong. But some folks would rather spend $300 on a NEW dizzy rather than a $50 build of what is currently working perfectly fine. and those +$300, +$300's...add up quick.

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Old 12-05-2021, 09:30 PM
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I just had a set of RA V heads rebuilt.all new valves,guides valve seals,4 seats, etc.Parts were $395,labor for valve job,guides,seals,pressure test heads,install seats etc was $770.They were able to reuse my springs and retainers.Total was $1200.Cost to assm the V8 engine was $1495 as it was a Hybrid 301-383 build.FWIW,Tom

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