#221  
Old 12-01-2021, 02:38 PM
PAUL K's Avatar
PAUL K PAUL K is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sugar Grove IL USA
Posts: 6,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Engineering says you include ALL of the Data, not just data that you want to use to support YOUR position. Never said YOU were Lying. By not admitting that Pontiacs had the same issues is basically the same though.

You Are just stirring the Chit here Paul. I expected you to be more of a Neutral Person.
Willing to hear data from both sides. But now you are turning the discussion into a urination contest like all of the other ones on this board. I am done here on this thread.

HAHA the car was out of balance due to Bills weight and obviously that caused the part to fail, NOT.

TV

Tom, I'm not retired and one of the folks that works. We working folks are having to work longer hours and be more productive to make up for the slackers in our Nation that are sitting on the sidelines. So long posts with supporting data won't happen from me. All my posts are factual and based towards the OP's original question.

If you feel like "calling someone out" you might want to question the guys claiming you can buy a 5.3 from a wrecking yard for $500 and run tens.... I call BS

As far as the LS engines go, I'm plenty experienced with them.I have personally built many, ported hundreds of heads and converse regularly with my friend who builds LS engines for one of the largest LS shops in the country.

As far as the 6 foot guy that lost his balancer I wonder if maybe he banged his head on the hood of his car (due to his extreme height), became loopy and misadjusted his torque wrench when he was installing his balancer .... One possible explanation because I am well over six feet tall and have bumped my head a few times over the years.... It happens

__________________
Go fast, see Elvis!
www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors
  #222  
Old 12-01-2021, 03:09 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 31,294
Default

Like I posted earlier Paul I am done with this one, just replying to your last post.
Put in 39 years at the work game and we can talk about that again.
TV

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.
  #223  
Old 12-01-2021, 03:23 PM
PAUL K's Avatar
PAUL K PAUL K is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sugar Grove IL USA
Posts: 6,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Like I posted earlier Paul I am done with this one, just replying to your last post.
Put in 39 years at the work game and we can talk about that again.
TV
I know you did (worked 39 years) and congratulations on your retirement. I've got twenty seven years in now and going to slow down in the next year or so. I'm taking my father's advice and retire as soon as you can afford to. He was blessed with thirty one years of retirement.

__________________
Go fast, see Elvis!
www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors
  #224  
Old 12-01-2021, 03:25 PM
242177P's Avatar
242177P 242177P is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,709
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
I am done here on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Like I posted earlier Paul I am done with this one,

  #225  
Old 12-01-2021, 03:38 PM
pastry_chef's Avatar
pastry_chef pastry_chef is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,300
Default

Tom and I don't always agree but he can sure see when the outstanding performance is overwhelming.

  #226  
Old 12-01-2021, 03:43 PM
pastry_chef's Avatar
pastry_chef pastry_chef is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,300
Default

Get a piece of the LS action, retire faster.

Butler's understand -- https://butler-ls.com

  #227  
Old 12-01-2021, 03:56 PM
MarkS57's Avatar
MarkS57 MarkS57 is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Flemington, NJ
Posts: 575
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 242177P View Post
Just When I Thought I Was Out, They Pull Me Back In!

__________________

65 Tempest, 400, TH400
86 Fiero SE 2.8
The Following User Says Thank You to MarkS57 For This Useful Post:
  #228  
Old 12-01-2021, 05:43 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

LOL there are always going to be some Pontiac loyals that turn a blind eye.

I lost track of this thread a couple pages ago, and looks like it hasn't changed.

So I'm not sure where someone may have said buy an LS in a junk yard for $500 and run tens, but that certainly doesn't happen for $500. Not sure where that came from. My intent was to explain they are plentiful for cheap and easy to swap and turn key as is. That's what makes them enticing for retro swaps.

If you want to go slapping turbos on them that's a different ballgame. I've seen many get away with it on a budget and go pretty quick. It's one of the few engines I've seen able to do that in stock form and last for at least a while, but that's not the way I really prefer to do it.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #229  
Old 12-01-2021, 05:51 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Humbolt County California
Posts: 8,283
Default

If you want to turn your Pontiac into a "who cares car" stick a LS under the hood. And they are ugly.
PMD all they way.

  #230  
Old 12-01-2021, 05:55 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

That's where I differ from many people that consider themselves a "car enthusiast"

Not that I advocate doing it, but I can appreciate a classic car no matter what it is. Building and restoring them for a living I guess gives me a better understanding what it takes, and the effort and money involved. My taste really has nothing to do with it.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #231  
Old 12-01-2021, 06:16 PM
PAUL K's Avatar
PAUL K PAUL K is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sugar Grove IL USA
Posts: 6,282
Default

This thread went sideways. The OP posted he didn't think an LS offered a bunch of advantages over "our" Poniac engines in the horsepower production department. It is a true statement. It actually seems the Internetters and LS swap guys took it a bit hard (quite often the truth hurts) and wanted to justify their reasoning for favoring an LS engine over a Pontiac. It was mostly folks that enjoy Internet Fairy Tales or guys that have a hard time finding money to spend on a Pontiac engine build.

__________________
Go fast, see Elvis!
www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors
  #232  
Old 12-01-2021, 06:22 PM
PAUL K's Avatar
PAUL K PAUL K is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sugar Grove IL USA
Posts: 6,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragncar View Post
If you want to turn your Pontiac into a "who cares car" stick a LS under the hood. And they are ugly.
PMD all they way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
That's where I differ from many people that consider themselves a "car enthusiast"

Not that I advocate doing it, but I can appreciate a classic car no matter what it is. Building and restoring them for a living I guess gives me a better understanding what it takes, and the effort and money involved. My taste really has nothing to do with it.
D'car has double standards for guys swapping corporate engines into Pontiacs. He loves the guys from Michigan that do it but pretty much everyone else is not allowed to.

__________________
Go fast, see Elvis!
www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors
  #233  
Old 12-01-2021, 06:23 PM
PAUL K's Avatar
PAUL K PAUL K is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Sugar Grove IL USA
Posts: 6,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Roberts View Post
LSTTFMFER
LMAO!

__________________
Go fast, see Elvis!
www.facebook.com/PaulKnippensMuscleMotors
  #234  
Old 12-01-2021, 06:43 PM
1funride 1funride is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Newark Valley NY
Posts: 384
Default

Junk yard LS, cheap turbo, make more power than you will with 10K in a Pontiac motor. I love Pontiac motors and anything other than a Pontiac in a Pontiac is a sin, but I don't think this is a hard one to answer, LS way cheaper to build, heads flow great, rugged blocks.

  #235  
Old 12-01-2021, 07:03 PM
FrankieT/A's Avatar
FrankieT/A FrankieT/A is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 2,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
LOL there are always going to be some Pontiac loyals that turn a blind eye.



So I'm not sure where someone may have said buy an LS in a junk yard for $500 and run tens, but that certainly doesn't happen for $500. Not sure where that came from.
I said that... and if you read the post closely, what I said was these guys put TURBOS on junk yard motors and run 10's on stock bottom ends and when they blow just replace the motor.

I NEVER SAID JY $500 motor and run tens!!! Not yelling just emphasizing.

__________________
1978 Black & Gold T/A [complete 70 Ram Air III (carb to pan) PQ and 12 bolt], fully loaded, deluxe, WS6, T-Top car - 1972 Formula 455HO Ram Air numbers matching Julep Green - 1971 T/A 455, 320 CFM Eheads, RP cam, Doug's headers, Fuel injection, TKX 5 Spd. 12 Bolt 3.73, 4 wheel disc. All A/C cars
  #236  
Old 12-01-2021, 07:08 PM
FrankieT/A's Avatar
FrankieT/A FrankieT/A is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 2,556
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankieT/A View Post
These guys buy junk yard 5.3's and 4.8's and without doing a thing turbo them run 10's on a stock bottom end. Blow them up after about 10 runs, go back to the junk yard buy another $500 engine and by the end of the weekend they are ready to go 10's again.

Hard to beat that!!!
Here's the actual quote...

__________________
1978 Black & Gold T/A [complete 70 Ram Air III (carb to pan) PQ and 12 bolt], fully loaded, deluxe, WS6, T-Top car - 1972 Formula 455HO Ram Air numbers matching Julep Green - 1971 T/A 455, 320 CFM Eheads, RP cam, Doug's headers, Fuel injection, TKX 5 Spd. 12 Bolt 3.73, 4 wheel disc. All A/C cars
  #237  
Old 12-01-2021, 09:23 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Okay, I was just reading it from one of the other guys, I didn't see the actual post.
Last time I was here the other day there were only 8 pages?? I get a notification and now there are 11 or 12 LOL. I wasn't going back through to read all that since most of it is, well,,,,,,you know.

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #238  
Old 12-01-2021, 09:45 PM
krisr's Avatar
krisr krisr is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sydney, OZ
Posts: 1,433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1funride View Post
Junk yard LS, cheap turbo, make more power than you will with 10K in a Pontiac motor. I love Pontiac motors and anything other than a Pontiac in a Pontiac is a sin, but I don't think this is a hard one to answer, LS way cheaper to build, heads flow great, rugged blocks.
This is partially true but also may need some more context, because i've been involved in some of these "cheap" builds that make gobs of power, but only for a limited time.

Nearly every "melted" turbo LS done on the cheap conversion i've seen melts #7 piston - and yes, steam ports left intact. One of the owners I worked with did it 3 times. Zero issues with tune, heaps of fuel and 10* timing. Apparently not an isolated situation and many others report the same issue with stock bottom end motors.

So routinely melting #7, sleeving/machining, time pulling an engine, time refitting an engine, time removing and refitting turbo pipework, routinely buying/dumping fluids from engine, the high power (short lived) LS junk swap deal gets pretty ****.

Above owner that did the cheap turbo 5.3 conversion has since sold that engine/turbo combination because he got sick of it melting all the time and has gone back to a normal 350 SBC that was factory option in his car (Holden).

Do LS's have their place? Absolutely, I love my LS3 in my daily driver. But am I absolutely thrilled that Paul is building me a new engine for my Monaro and it's still a conventional Pontiac deal? Hell yeah! So don't retire just yet mate

__________________
'71 Holden HQ Monaro - 3850lbs race weight, 400c/i - 11.4 @ 120
'66 Pontiac GTO - 389, 4 speed street cruiser
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to krisr For This Useful Post:
  #239  
Old 12-01-2021, 11:29 PM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krisr View Post
Nearly every "melted" turbo LS done on the cheap conversion i've seen melts #7 piston - and yes, steam ports left intact. One of the owners I worked with did it 3 times. Zero issues with tune, heaps of fuel and 10* timing. Apparently not an isolated situation and many others report the same issue with stock bottom end motors.
That's most likely because of the tune. The LS engine, particularly with the passenger car intakes, have a tendency to run the #7 cylinder lean. When I was tuning them it was pretty common to increase injector pulse width for #7 to richen that cylinder a bit.

Just a little tid bit for those closet LS guys I know are lurking here

__________________
2019 Pontiac Heaven class winner

https://youtu.be/XqEydRRRwqE
  #240  
Old 12-02-2021, 12:24 AM
krisr's Avatar
krisr krisr is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sydney, OZ
Posts: 1,433
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
That's most likely because of the tune. The LS engine, particularly with the passenger car intakes, have a tendency to run the #7 cylinder lean. When I was tuning them it was pretty common to increase injector pulse width for #7 to richen that cylinder a bit.

Just a little tid bit for those closet LS guys I know are lurking here
Yeah can't do that on the factory P01/P59 without hacking the binary to get access to injector gain(factor) vs cylinder. Running the factory PCM is the common "cheap" combination we see here - i.e. the pull a junker and run it concept. Some guys get away with flowing injectors and putting the fatter injector on cyl7, but sometimes they all flow near perfect like my Siemens 660's or the 1000's in my LS3.

Aftermarket PCM like a TerminatorX, Megasquirt, Haltech, no problems to trim cyl7 injector higher and trim the other 7 at 100%. But you're also up $1-2.5k just in engine management to do that. Which went against the owners philosophy of that motor which melted #7, 3 times, unfortunately. And others...

__________________
'71 Holden HQ Monaro - 3850lbs race weight, 400c/i - 11.4 @ 120
'66 Pontiac GTO - 389, 4 speed street cruiser
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:19 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017