[RocktimusPryme]

Im late the this party, but

Its the heads. End of story. Factory stock heads flow like my ported E heads. Let alone factory performance offerings which are still way cheaper than my heads and outflow them easily.

Love them or hate them, you cant argue with how good the factory units are. Even the cheap ones.


There is lot of icing on the cake too, as mentioned they are both newer and likely machines with improved processes, factory fuel injection is nice. Large aftermarket following, but at the end of the day from a cheap power perspective its all about those heads.

Not to mention that even with the "Sloppy Mechanics" tax that has made junkyard LS based motors go up, its NOTHING compared to the prices for a mystery 455 that might be junk when you open it up. And thats just Pontiac. Try to find a 427 or 428 FE for what it would cost for even a desirable 6.0 LS motor. The Sloppy tax is nothing compared to the White New Balance Tax.

I totally understand wanting to keep a Pontiac in a Pontiac, Ford in a Ford, whatever. I get it. "It doesnt look right", "The coil packs are ugly" I get it. Valid opinions. Where i get annoyed with these arguments is when somebody says "The LS motors arent that good"

Yeah they are. They are really, really good. There is no reason your love of another brand, model etc should cause one to throw reason out the window.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The reality is that the risk is extremely low when buying an LS engine. Much lower than if you found a 50 year old classic car engine. That's just the way it is.

Besides, if you use a big name yard like I have done in the past, they'll warranty the engine and guarantee that it will at least start and run without issues, and if there is one, they'll swap it out for another. They won't do that with a 50 year old engine, and quite honestly they won't have any of those in the yard anyway.

If I hear one more LS swap guy cry about noisy lifters, I will puke. That's how many there are. And even if you get a warranty, you still have to do the work. It gets old after the 3rd or 4th one. And some of the guys I know are on that count. So far.

The 'IF' I was talking about is that if you could get a comparable Pontiac engine, sitting right next to an LS engine, both in the same condition, which would you choose? And why? With no cost factor.

Without the cost factor, most would pick up the Pontiac engine I would think. And the cost factor is not that much of a factor if you have to build either from the ground up. So you can't just say "It's cheaper to swap in an LS engine", it's just not true, or not all the truth. That's the point I'm trying to make. And then what if you want to go faster?

The LS engine is a great engine, modern tech, modern performance, and for the money, it better be. There's enough bolt on stuff for 'classic' engines to still be competitive. The 'gap' between the two is not as big as most think, and that's on purpose, GM wants people to do the swaps, and promote the new stuff, it's good for them, it's good for business.

Shoot, you don't even have to figure out any 'tune' on them, just pick one of the millions of builds and follow it. (Yawn)

I like the LS engines, and was very close on doing 2 different swaps. But IMO, to do it 'right', it's not going to happen with a junkyard truck engine. And then when I compared costs, the classic engines were much more affordable, and with comparable or more power.

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[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Im late the this party, but

Its the heads. End of story. Factory stock heads flow like my ported E heads. Let alone factory performance offerings which are still way cheaper than my heads and outflow them easily.

Not true. Stock LS heads flow 244/206, and that's at .700 lift. Even the bigger, performance heads only flow like 305, and that's doctored.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hr...der-head-test/

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[Sirrotica]

There's a reason that GM included "beauty covers" on LS engines...LOL

It's like engine makeup...........

The woman that puts on an hours worth of makeup, and does her hair, because she don't look anything like the finished product when she jumps out of bed in the AM...

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Here's an example of one of my own that touches on what I meant in post 17.

This blazer was my daily for years. Transmission started slipping so my first thought was perfect time to stick an overdrive in it, since it's my daily, right?

Looking at costs to buy and rebuild one, I started looking at LS swaps in the boneyard. There was a 2005 6.0 with it's 4L80E offered to me for $1200 and it only had 79k miles on it. Well that's a no brainer....DUH!!!

So the swap began. Fuel system, conversion harness, and about $4000 total I had a complete LS swap in my daily blazer that knocked down 21 mpg highway and ran circles around the old 350 I pulled out.

In fact, here it is at the track running 14.30's. I never touched the engine, not even headers. And that's coming out soft because it had a habit of snapping the pinion off the truck 12 bolt.
It weighed 5300 lbs. without me in it, had 33" tires on it, and 3.73 gears. Friggin hilarious. Poor SS camaro owner didn't know what hit him.


https://youtu.be/msgSc3S-yHA

As a first gen Blazer owner since 1985, I absolutely love your 1972.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Just do us all a favor and take time to hide all the hideous coil packs, wiring looms, sensors, valve covers….not much on a LS looks nice stock.

[HWYSTR455]

"The CNC LS9 heads do away with the “swirl wing” and surpass even a CNC LS3 head with 322.7cfm at .600-in. lift on the intake and 218.2cfm at .700-in. lift on the exhaust."

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...rted-ls-heads/

MAST offers an assembled pair of LS7 heads, ported to 305cfm, for $3800.00:

https://www.mastmotorsports.com/coll...cylinder-heads

Butler has a CNC round port E-Head offering that flows 340+ for $3295.00:

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1394343

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[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

If I hear one more LS swap guy cry about noisy lifters, I will puke. That's how many there are. And even if you get a warranty, you still have to do the work. It gets old after the 3rd or 4th one. And some of the guys I know are on that count. So far.

The 'IF' I was talking about is that if you could get a comparable Pontiac engine, sitting right next to an LS engine, both in the same condition, which would you choose? And why? With no cost factor.

Without the cost factor, most would pick up the Pontiac engine I would think. And the cost factor is not that much of a factor if you have to build either from the ground up. So you can't just say "It's cheaper to swap in an LS engine", it's just not true, or not all the truth. That's the point I'm trying to make. And then what if you want to go faster?



.

What you're commenting on really isn't the norm. Not sure where you're finding noisy lifters on LS engines. I hear more complaints about noisy lifters on this Pontiac site than anywhere else combined. LS engines early on were known for piston slap from 97-2002 but that problem pretty much disappeared after that from my experience with these engines. I've had a bunch of them and worked on even more and never came across a noisy lifter issue though. Hell I've done cam swaps on 100k engines, reuse the lifters, and then continue to drive them another 100k miles. Thousands and thousands of people are doing that. The labor issue really doesn't factor in either when doing this stuff yourself, because either way, you're doing it whether it's an LS or a classic engine. Even if the classic engine fails who's pulling that back out? Doesn't matter what engine it is at that point does it. It still doesn't change the fact that the chances are less.

And I'm still not grasping your point. Picking one or the other is a cost factor, plain and simple. We can't speak "hypothetically" about what "IF" because that's just not reality. The reality is that Pontiac engines aren't sitting in bone yards with 60-70k miles on them just waiting for someone to buy it. That's the truth. If there were you could bet people would be buying them. But that's simply not our current state. The Pontiac engines people want haven't been made since 1979 (400) and 455's were gone after 76. Where are you going to find a low mile 400 or 455 just sitting in a bone yard?? One that runs, complete, and ready to drop in a car and go? If you do you better buy yourself a lottery ticket.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

There is no reason your love of another brand, model etc should cause one to throw reason out the window.

That's really the problem. Brand loyalty causes blindness and narrow mind style thinking. That's just the way people are. Not just Pontiac but most any car group. I see it all the time owning several different brand cars myself. Very rarely do I ever run into someone that enjoys and can appreciate several different brands of cars for what they are.

[HWYSTR455]

It's totally the norm, which is why I don't buy onto the LS lifter conversion for Pontiacs. All you have to do is Google 'LS lifter noise' or do a search on YouTube, and you will see how normal it is.

And no worries about not grasping the point, it's just that you can't make a cost comparison between a boneyard used engine and a fresh engine rebuild. It's complicated.

.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

It's totally the norm, which is why I don't buy onto the LS lifter conversion for Pontiacs. All you have to do is Google 'LS lifter noise' or do a search on YouTube, and you will see how normal it is.

And no worries about not grasping the point, it's just that you can't make a cost comparison between a boneyard used engine and a fresh engine rebuild. It's complicated.

.

Sure you can, it's not complicated at all. I can tell you any engine I build from scratch, by the time I completely go through it and do it right, I'm spending about $10k. That's if I have the block and crank already in my possession. Even a cheap SBC sets me back over $6k and that's if I already have a block and heads and a crank, intake and carb sitting here.

It's just not cheap to build an engine correctly these days and there are no guarantees with it either. Then you have machine shop hang ups, and parts availability right now is absolutely ridiculous.

That's what people are looking at. LS engines are sitting around most everywhere right now and not all that expensive. Dropped in and running is much cheaper than building a classic engine, and you usually get an overdrive with it to boot. Not saying that's what I would do (depending on the car) but that's what people are considering. That's the attraction.


For the record, It's not that I find issues with the LS lifters a problem, because I don't, I simply don't buy into the LS lifter conversion because I just don't find it necessary when the retro stuff has worked fine for me for 30 years. People trying to reinvent the wheel. I just don't need it.

[JSchmitz]

I had a 2000 Silverado that starting having start-up engine slap around 50k. Called GM and they extended my engine warranty. The noise went away quickly after it ran for a few minutes. Kept that truck until 185k. Still ran like new. Never heard an LS with lifter noise.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

There's a reason that GM included "beauty covers" on LS engines...LOL

It's like engine makeup...........

The woman that puts on an hours worth of makeup, and does her hair, because she don't look anything like the finished product when she jumps out of bed in the AM...

Is that kinda like the putting lip stick on a pig thing

[PAUL K]

Oh yeah and at the end of the day.... LS engines are still "easy to beat"

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Stock LS heads flow

An intelligent person looks at LS3. lol
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hr...er-heads-test/

I know it is hard.. just so hard.. lol

[389]

I have a 69 el Camino SS396, it has a 1978 truck 454, Th400 2.73 rear end. It has about 10,000 miles on it. It blew the doors off my old 64 Pontiac 462 ported 6x, 041 cam. I was driving the Pontiac my brother was driving my el Camino..

Chevrolet is the king and always has been. Once I accepted this, I enjoyed my Pontiacs even more because I didn't have anything to prove.

I like how the cylinders on the Chevy are spaced evenly. The starter is on the passenger side to even out the weight.

Interesting note, The 68 to 72 el Camino has a massive frame its called the A.O. Smith #1942 the only other car or truck that uses this frame is the 69 to 72 Pontiac Grand Prix Model J..

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Not true.

.

Amazes me how many pro LSers there are that don't know why or wont say why.

That's when the biggest clue is right in their face.. LS LS LS

With all the after market support we have for Pontiacs... That one item can't be bought off-the-shelf and best I can tell it can't be custom ordered. At least not now that Crane is gone.

Clay

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Not true. Stock LS heads flow 244/206, and that's at .700 lift. Even the bigger, performance heads only flow like 305, and that's doctored.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hr...der-head-test/

.

This is irritating me now, because I can specifically remember wasting time at work reading a really good article on LS headflow in car craft or Hot Rod on my phone. Im guessing now that I remembered it being for low end heads and maybe it was big rectangle port castings. I know it wasnt anything absurdly expensive

I can handle being incorrect, but it annoys me that I cant find what Im misremembering. I got a new phone since then and I would have to redownload all those backissues, and then go through them. Which Im not going to do.

[FrankieT/A]

Of course you picked the most expensive LS builder on the planet...lol

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by 242177P

Yes, something like that would be sweet. Lol


The hot rodding guys, like most of the Good guys shows, do have it figured out how to make the LS pretty nice looking. The LS crowd seems to show up at our cruise in’s & shows looking like truck engines.

Maybe to add to the original topic. There were just bare speedmaster heads on sale for $488 each here yesterday, 300 cfm is a piece of cake with those. Pretty cheap head platform too start with. I did a girdle for PMD engines, probably $400 ish with all the fasteners. Should move a stock 2 bolt block up to 800 HP. Doesn’t make sense to compare a LS to a PMD cube for cube in a N/A application. That like leaving the 300 lb football players in the locker and sending the cheer leaders out to play. Lol