[chuckies76ta]

Aeromotive makes some very nice fuel pumps. The new electric fuel pumps are all going away from brushes to solid state. I would look at those. Lots of choices. I run the A750 with -6an line on 2 cars. Great pump.

[JSPONT]

I like overkill. I love Aeromotive stuff. Return lines to me, are a must. I also use a Ford solenoid and a switch. It's nice to kill the pumper and run the bowls out of the crap ethanol over the winter.

[74Grandville]

Originally Posted by 389

Sump the stock tank or get a 15 gallon RCI aluminum fuel cell put it in the trunk. Then run another 3/8" line next to the existing 3/8" line. If there's no return line I would put that in too. Run 1/4" for that. Connect both 3/8" lines to the sumps two ports and run them as close as you can to the fuel pump, then run hose between the tubing and the fuel pump with a three way tee screwed into the fuel pump. The Carter mechanical fuel pump is amazing, that is once you get it fed. A engineer friend I know suggested this over one 1/2" fuel line. He said the rules change when your pulling liquid as opposed to pushing it.. The two 3/8" lines would be perfect...
I did this to my old 64 Pontiac and wow what a difference!.

how do you connect the 1/4" return line for this setup.

Thanks!

[wbnapier]

455/469 engine. I have a 5/16" feed line and regulate the fuel pressure at 3psi for a tri-power. I can WOT all 4 gears and never run out of fuel. Mechanical pump.

[lust4speed]

Purely by accident had a friend prove that he could make it to the first turnout running a Holley 850 DP after blowing the fuse on his electric pump. Did it three times before we figured out the feed wire was shorting out when he launched. Large bowls on the Holley style carbs do a pretty fair job of covering up fuel system shortcomings.

Things get critical with a Quadrajet and not much forgiveness there. On Wheelspin's GTO were were running a RobMc550 and the car consistently got soft at the top of second gear. We simply couldn't suck enough fuel through the replacement 3/8" line to keep the Quadrajet happy. Things would probably have been fine with a Holley. Solution was very similar to the photo Tom V. posted above except we used a Carter electric pump. Same check valve and engineering. Les only used the booster for acceleration runs and drove around with the booster pump off. Always thought it would be a great idea to simply wire into the passing gear switch with a relay to turn the pump on at full throttle.

While everything worked great, we could have done better avoiding some of the elbows. Then again it was pretty cramped for space under his '66 GTO.

Here's the installation pic before wiring it up.

[Kenth]

Been using this pump for 25+ years on my 1966 Tripower GTO.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p4070

And this pump for 20+ years on my 1970 Judge (now 462), (original engine in storage.)
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-p4594

Keeps the bowls filled thru all gears, silent, dead head, no return lines, no vapor lock, no check valves, no fuel percolating at shut-off.

Not going back to a mech fuel pump, having above issues, soon.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by wbnapier

455/469 engine. I have a 5/16" feed line and regulate the fuel pressure at 3psi for a tri-power. I can WOT all 4 gears and never run out of fuel. Mechanical pump.

TRI-POWER = 3 large fuel bowls. I could post the same thing using my 3 Holley
(500 cfm) each Carbs I have mounted on an aluminum Tri-Power Intake.
That is 500 cfm (2-Barrel rated cfm) or 370 cfm each when rated like a 4 bbl.
So a 1000 cfm induction system.

Tom V.

[Mike S]

I have been using a Carter mechanical pump for 20+ years. Trying to remember, I think it was 120 or 130 gph. Using the stock fuel lines also. I am guessing 500 hp it has been ran off and on at the track for 20 years. It will run 11.80/113 at 3900lbs.
Don't over think it. Mechanical is all we had in the day.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by wbnapier

455/469 engine. I have a 5/16" feed line and regulate the fuel pressure at 3psi for a tri-power. I can WOT all 4 gears and never run out of fuel. Mechanical pump.

That is a feat let me tell you, I agree most cars are over pumped and that’s cheap insurance. And sometimes a smaller line is better especially on launch but man 5/16 is pretty small. Wonder how close to the ragged edge this thing is and if it’s getting lean .

Lean is mean, cars probably fast as hell because of it. (Obviously it’s not nosing over) Would love to see a wide band O2 in this car.

Ever check your plugs ? Wide open run , chop it and pull the plugs? If it’s truly making it and staying rich enough, with That set up that impressive.

[wbnapier]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

That is a feat let me tell you, I agree most cars are over pumped and that’s cheap insurance. And sometimes a smaller line is better especially on launch but man 5/16 is pretty small. Wonder how close to the ragged edge this thing is and if it’s getting lean .

Lean is mean, cars probably fast as hell because of it. (Obviously it’s not nosing over) Would love to see a wide band O2 in this car.

Ever check your plugs ? Wide open run , chop it and pull the plugs? If it’s truly making it and staying rich enough, with That set up that impressive.

I have a '65 GTO, so the tank to pump is 5/16", then it's 3/8" from pump to fuel block on the tri-power. The tri-power has mostly 5/16" lines going into the fuel inlets. The fuel inlets have a pretty small diameter inlet.

No return line.

For those that like to get into the weeds, you could do a hydraulic analysis on your fuel system and you'd be surprised at the results.

I have a wide band O2!. I just reduced the size of my outboard jets from 74 to 72 as the AFR was 12.0 at WOT. With 72s, I am 12.25ish. I am now 72-64-72.

When I changed the jets, on start up, my rear carb float stuck and fuel poured out of the bowl, then out the top. I was shocked how much fuel flows to those at 3psi. I'm actually at 3.2psi. The pump is the ROBMC one if it matters too much with a 5/16" feed.

As for plugs, I don't like how they look, but I'm not an expert, and I have the 02 sensor that tells me I'm good.. Zero knock with 91. Attached are plug photos.

Really sorry for hi-jacking this thread.

[Formulajones]

My take on the question, if you're considering going electric, put it in the tank, period! There is a reason OEM's put pumps in the tanks. Cooler operation, quieter operation, with the right pump you never have to worry about fuel starvation and you get OEM reliability, 99% of the time if done correctly you shouldn't have to worry about it for many years.

I don't have a problem with mechanical pumps either. Our daily drivers are mechanical pumps. I've been able to make stock AC mechanical pumps go mid 12's at the track without issue and they daily drive just fine. Seems once I push over 400hp they become a fuel delivery problem though. Higher output mechanicals can solve that to a degree but they really need big pickup and feed lines if you expect them to keep up on anything around 500hp or more.

For the OP's power level I'd probably want an electric in the tank because I know I'd be taking the car to the track a couple times a year for some fun, and spirited driving on the street occasionally.
For his purposes a really good mechanical would be okay. A RobbMC would be my choice. Even if it's just a cruiser you know there is going to be some spirited driving and I'd want to make sure delivery isn't an issue.

If you put a mechanical pump on the car that needs supplemented with an electric, then it's time to step up to a big boy pump. Either a bigger mechanical or just put the electric pump in the tank and be done with it.

The real reason people don't do it is because of cost and the extra work involved. Hey, it's a classic car, they cost money and you have to work on them once in a while, that's classic car life. It's supposed to be fun

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by wbnapier

I have a '65 GTO, so the tank to pump is 5/16", then it's 3/8" from pump to fuel block on the tri-power. The tri-power has mostly 5/16" lines going into the fuel inlets. The fuel inlets have a pretty small diameter inlet.

No return line.

For those that like to get into the weeds, you could do a hydraulic analysis on your fuel system and you'd be surprised at the results.

I have a wide band O2!. I just reduced the size of my outboard jets from 74 to 72 as the AFR was 12.0 at WOT. With 72s, I am 12.25ish. I am now 72-64-72.

When I changed the jets, on start up, my rear carb float stuck and fuel poured out of the bowl, then out the top. I was shocked how much fuel flows to those at 3psi. I'm actually at 3.2psi. The pump is the ROBMC one if it matters too much with a 5/16" feed.

As for plugs, I don't like how they look, but I'm not an expert, and I have the 02 sensor that tells me I'm good.. Zero knock with 91. Attached are plug photos.

Really sorry for hi-jacking this thread.

The O2 sensor isn’t gonna lie, well done!!



As for the OP I’d say you engine builder is just being safe which makes sense. Could you get away with less probably, but for an engine builder you always want to see a car a little on the safe side . No one wants guys blowing up engines w your name on it

I do a lot of turbo set ups and my stuff lives when so many other don’t. It’s simple. I over fuel and under time it and it’s fat lazy and happy.

The okd stock eliminator guys would purposely run and air leak usually carb gasket loose jet the hell out of it and make it run like a higher CFM carb. Usually lose the front so when at full throttle it would tip the carb back. Anyway this taught me that keeping car fat was worth it’s weight in gold for survival . Because of you get a leak or any other issue being a little on the fat side is a good place to be
More fuel
Pump than you need likely is good cushion to.

[OCMDGTO]

Chris65lemans,
For your power level and no desire for a timeslip you will be fine with that Holley mechanical pump but I would use a 1/2" sending unit and 1/2" lines from tank to carb. I used exactly that but 3/8" from pump to carb and went 12.1 in the qtr mile even though pressure was dropping to 3psi. I did not feel power drop off, surprisingly. If you want room for growth and to do it right once then it's hard to beat an in tank electric setup. I have a slightly used Holley pump and Robbmc 1/2" sending unit I would sell if you are interested. Good luck!

[steve25]

In regards to post 30, you can’t judge anything from those plugs if they where not fresh before you made the first 3 or 4 good hard pulls thru the gears full throttle session’s!

[FrankieT/A]

I ran a 455 .030 over with E heads and a Qjet, 1/2" lines from sender to carb. I used a Robbmc's I/2" fuel sender and his 550 pump and used my old 3/8" as a return and eliminated my old return. I had fuel starvation issues on the street constantly. His fuel sender is really a nice piece but I think the 550 pump is a piece...I ended up changing the tank to a "in tank" with a Walbro and problem solved.

[TCSGTO]

I’m partial to mechanicals for street cars. If you’re not going to run a properly designed return system most electric pumps burn up early in street driving when deadheaded, usually at the worst possible time. Plus I don’t think most of the common electric pumps aren’t made to the same quality standards today as they were in the past.

Run 3/8” minimum feed line with a mechanical, preferably -08. The RobbMc 1100 turned up to 12psi with -10 feed line and large the port Holley regulator works for me to mid 10sec ET’s at the track.I turn it down to 7-8 psi to save wear on the fuel pump eccentric for street driving.

Bottom line is if you run a mechanical make sure you have the biggest unrestricted feed line with the fewest bends possible. Try to avoid any 90 degree fittings if you can.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

The O2 sensor isn’t gonna lie, well done!!

A few questions for you turbo69bird.

a) Do you recognize the name STEVE MORRIS?

b) I assume you recognize the name Brian Hedrick. (One of the East Coast Mafia racers for years). Ran a boosted firebird. Think it ran 7.50 ish times before he stopped racing (in the quarter).

c) I was at several of Brian's dyno sessions at Steve Morris Dyno.

d) I saw Steve Morris clean the O2 Sensor on his dyno cell several times over the years as it was not reading correctly (according to Steve).

e) The numbers he generated after the O2 Sensor cleaning as far as Air/Fuel ratios (Lamda) were much more consistent.

So my Opinion and experience is that the O2 Sensor does lie sometimes and you can't just install it and forget about it.

Generic Statements like the one above, will steer others to ASSUME the O2 numbers are always correct,
which I am sorry to say is NOT ALWAYS the case.

Tom V.

[JUDGE3]

lot of fuel experts here with out of my league recommendations.

just my actual results here. I used electric pumps only when I raced a lot. noise/routing/regulators were kind of a hassel but worth it for the fun of racing.

Now, I will race time to time for fun, and love returning to a mechanical pump for pure simplicity worry free driving.

I experienced this: I used a quadrajet and mechanical pump and ran out of fuel racing. I switched to the dual bowl holley and did not.

I drove my new set up (pictures because I don't recall the pump pn# but its a stock type large bowl.) and I love the holley recommended by a out of my league fuel expert here.

I was very curious going back to a mechanical pump, I drove out to a lonely country road, set my gps/et speedometer and had zero fuel issues. very very pleased.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by JUDGE3

lot of fuel experts here with out of my league recommendations.

just my actual results here. I used electric pumps only when I raced a lot. noise/routing/regulators were kind of a hassel but worth it for the fun of racing.

Now, I will race time to time for fun, and love returning to a mechanical pump for pure simplicity worry free driving.

I experienced this: I used a quadrajet and mechanical pump and ran out of fuel racing. I switched to the dual bowl holley and did not.

I drove my new set up (pictures because I don't recall the pump pn# but its a stock type large bowl.) and I love the holley recommended by a out of my league fuel expert here.

I was very curious going back to a mechanical pump, I drove out to a lonely country road, set my gps/et speedometer and had zero fuel issues. very very pleased.

yes the dual fuel bowl on holleys etc make a huge difference vs a Q-jets small single bowl.

lots of recommendations here that arent needed for the OP's stated purpose, with a holley & 100% street use, any of the suggested mechanical pumps will be fine & much cheaper, easier & more reliable (except in tank) than an electric. there is no need to sump the tank & run dual lines etc for his type of street car.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

A few questions for you turbo69bird.

a) Do you recognize the name STEVE MORRIS?

b) I assume you recognize the name Brian Hedrick. (One of the East Coast Mafia racers for years). Ran a boosted firebird. Think it ran 7.50 ish times before he stopped racing (in the quarter).

c) I was at several of Brian's dyno sessions at Steve Morris Dyno.

d) I saw Steve Morris clean the O2 Sensor on his dyno cell several times over the years as it was not reading correctly (according to Steve).

e) The numbers he generated after the O2 Sensor cleaning as far as Air/Fuel ratios (Lamda) were much more consistent.

So my Opinion and experience is that the O2 Sensor does lie sometimes and you can't just install it and forget about it.

Generic Statements like the one above, will steer others to ASSUME the O2 numbers are always correct,
which I am sorry to say is NOT ALWAYS the case.

Tom V.

Nothing is ever absolute anyone who thinks that anything is absolute is a fool, nasa can’t keep things from failing and killing people, so don’t expect you can
A
Wide band O2 sensor is very reliable , If your running leaded fuel or abusing it in some other way I suppose it could but, as I stated I set my cars up fat and lazy just in case of anything negative .
Most guys don’t know how to read plugs or chop the throttle etc properly so it (o2 sensor) FAR exceeds the data your gonna get from reading plugs for most people .

If your o2 sensor is suddenly reading different without changes you May want to investigate something

Dyno O2 sensors are being plugged unplugged used on different engines w different fuels , different substances used for sealers some o2 friendly some not, id say it’s hardly an apples to apples comparison to installing one in your car and leaving it alone , but if you’d really like to split hairs anything can fail.
Personally I’d read plugs as well if I was concerned, something didn’t look right.


My car has been together forever. Since 2006 or so, never even pull the plugs they are RUSTY, I run 100 LL on occasion because being a pilot I happen to be at the pump sometimes, and my o2 sensor has been rock solid w zero changes so IDK. None of the cars I’ve set up have ever had any issues w o2 sensor not working properly, but I have heard those stories as well . A true every day street car sees enough use and abuse it will eventually fail but fail in a way you’ll notice it usually.

Again nothing is absolute but the wide band o2 sensor properly installed and batting abuse, is going to be your best way of watching your air to fuel ratio available today

Again I’m going from my own experience not watching someone else There’s no way to know if his lowest guy in the totem pole touched that O2 sensor with a something on his hands or what happened .
You can choose to believe or do whatever you want.
Your not required to listen to my thoughts or personal experience nor is anyone else.