[AdamIsAdam]

Ok, so I did what I didn't want to do. I pulled the alternator off. That long bolt is annoying. Anyway, the bracket is flush against the head. I could put a washer between the head and the PS bracket to angle the PS pump out but that seems wrong.

I did put the old belt back on and it's smaller and of course narrower, so being on the shorter side of the adjustment shot seems to keep the PS pulley more correctly lined up.

Thoughts?







actually look how strange it is now. All I didn't tighten it up.

[AdamIsAdam]

ok, so this was driving me bonkers! I had to write it out. Here are the belts laid out. I'm going to go buy Gates 7520 & 9525 to see which one works best. I know the wider belt is preferred for power steering, but given that my PS pulley seems to be a little angled I'm wondering if the narrower belt helped keep it from coming off all these years. So I'll buy 7520 in the "if it ain't broke" school. I'll also try #9525 to see if I can make it better.

But what I was able to tell by removing the alternator is that as I moved the PS pump towards the widest side of the adjustment travel, it started to really angle the pulley more. And since the Gates 7525 is 53.125" and the one that was on there before was a 15525 at 52.5", I was at the upper end of the adjustment range.

I'm not sure why the cross reference for PN 15525 is 7525 and not 7520? That would have saved me a lot of trouble!

[PontGuy]

The attached diagram from the Pontiac service manual shows where the spacers go. The one on the front (red arrow) is rarely missing but the one shown by the blue arrow is very commonly "lost" and it looks like yours is gone. It goes between the pump and the rear bracket. I just stack washers or find a nut that is the right thickness. Getting the right spacer in there will get everything lined up properly.

I can't tell by looking at your pictures but make sure that the belts ride at the same height over the pulleys. Otherwise it will squeal and/or wear out belts quickly. Best to do it right.

[AdamIsAdam]

Thanks for taking the time to post that diagram. I think the problem here is that I don't have all of those same brackets. My car is a 64 but the block is from the 70's and who knows what brackets I have. What I can say is that I clearly don't have those brackets labeled "Generator Mounting Parts." And if I put a spacer in the blue arrow, it would make my pulley lean even more the wrong direction.

That being said, it's possible that because I don't have the "generator mounting parts" that maybe I need an additional spacer on that long bolt to make up the difference. This would push the inner side (center of car) of the pump/pulley forward which is what it needs.

I'm thinking I would add washers between the alternator and the PS pump bracket in this pic:






Just another pic:

[pfilean]

Life can be a bitch when you get parts that someone else put together and may not be totally right. Hard to eyeball down the belts in the pictures and be sure what you need. Looks like it's out of alignment but could be camera angle.

Use a straight edge to lay across two points on one pulley and see where the straight edge contacts the other pulley. Your year water pump pulley looks like a shallow enough cone offset to get by with that. If the pulleys are in a straight line the straight edge will strike two points on one pulley and two points on the other. See where you may need shims and how much. Of course those brackets are stamped steel plate and maybe some earlier guy made some "adjustments" and caused your problem. The plates look strong but with a long enough bar who knows.

I think belt length is measured along the outside surface. Maybe not, but in any case a wider belt will seem shorter as it won't set as deep in the pulley. And the listings in the auto stores at no longer quite what the originals were. They just want to get the closest listing to what each brand manufacturers and has in stock. But I think the intention in most cases is for the belt to set about flush with the outside of the pulley groove. There are some situations with deep pulleys for expected higher acceleration rates but not as common.

[TedRamAirII]

You need a flat washer between the PS bracket and the head. Maybe its slightly bent. See if that helps.

[PontGuy]

I recognize the 70's style pump bracket and the diagram is from a 74 manual. That bracket won't even work on early heads so I am sure it is not original to the car. But as far as I know it is common to all the 70's engines.

The alignment of the pump pulley is highly dependent on the mounting of the pump to the bracket that holds it on the head. And the spacers are critical to getting it right. I think that the blue-arrow spacer needs to be somewhere around 1/4" thick and it goes on the bottom/rear bolt, not on the stud that you can easily see from the side of the engine. You are right, adding a spacer to that stud would make it worse.

Fun fact- if you look closely you may notice that the non-80A diagram is actually messed up- the bolt with the spacer goes to the rear so it shouldn't be seen in the diagram view. In fact it would be physically impossible to assemble it as shown and this is the factory diagram! But everything else shown is correct.

I've been down this road quite a few times, most recently with the T/A that I sold last year. When I bought the car the pulley was out of alignment just like yours because it was missing that spacer. I am sure I took some before/after pictures but can't find them. I'll keep on looking.

Yes, somehow the catalog listings for Pontiac belts got messed up years ago so they are pretty much useless even for an all-original car. I settled on Dayco TopCog belts for Pontiacs quite a while back. .53 wide for the PS pump and .44 wide for the alternator. They ride over the pulleys perfectly even and never a squeal or a tossed belt, so I just stick with success. That doesn't mean other belts won't work but you do have to figure out which ones to buy to get it all to match up.

[74Grandville]

I could be way off, but it looks like everything is mounted low due to the missing threaded hole in the head by the valve cover. The power steering pump bracket looks like it's from a newer 70's cars, but your head is missing the mounting hole for it. The shinny alternator bracket is not stock.

The long bolt should not be in the middle of the head like that. That is where the power steering adjustment bolt goes.

If it were me I'd get a full setup that matched engines that did not have the extra mounting hole by the valve cover.


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[PontGuy]

Now that you mention it that does look odd, everything does seem low. Are these early heads?

That shouldn't change the spacers needed on the 70's style PS bracket. But could impact how it hooks up to the alternator brackets, which could pull it out of alignment.

What year are the heads?

[PontGuy]

OK, since you have heads without the bolt hole at the top then it is cobbled together. Been through that before too, and getting an original 60's style setup that doesn't use that hole would be by far the best thing. I like the 60's setup a whole lot better than the 70's setup anyway.

That said, I did find my pictures. Here is the pump mounted on the 70's PS bracket with the spacer, mounted in the proper location on a 1975 head. Arrow points to the spacer.

[400 Lemans]

Originally Posted by PontGuy

OK, since you have heads without the bolt hole at the top then it is cobbled together. Been through that before too, and getting an original 60's style setup that doesn't use that hole would be by far the best thing. I like the 60's setup a whole lot better than the 70's setup anyway.

That said, I did find my pictures. Here is the pump mounted on the 70's PS bracket with the spacer, mounted in the proper location on a 1975 head. Arrow points to the spacer.

PontGuy is correct. This is the same spacer i was describing earlier.

[400 Lemans]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

You need a flat washer between the PS bracket and the head. Maybe its slightly bent. See if that helps.

Wrong.

[TedRamAirII]

OK, now I see what you are talking about. A spacer (or a few flat washers) surely would get you in the ball park. I dont have anything newer than a 68 to look at, which uses a cast aluminum bracket for the PS.

[AdamIsAdam]

This just keeps getting better! sheesh.

My heads are #46 75cc converted to screw in studs. I forget the year, but it's 70's as I recall. They do have a 3rd hole up high just below valve cover. if you look closely, you'll see that someone broke off a bolt and left it in there. Not me But since my set up wasn't using it, I never paid attention to it.

So I have to work with what have. I think with the smaller belt I will get it working again. The only issue is do i go wider. And since they have to order the wider belt (out of stock! ) I picked up a 25-7516 today to try. I know it's too narrow, but it's a bit shorter and the shorter end of the adjustment seems to not twist the pulley out, or not as much.

Your bracket is different than mine. Where your arrow is I don't have a stud or bolt hole. I'll verify that again tonight, but look at the same view photos:





Checking out the other side of the PS pump and you'll see there's no bolt down low that goes through either.

[AdamIsAdam]

I stand corrected. I do have the lower bolt and it does have the spacer in it. Now what?

Plus, the belt I bought today, knowing it was not the right part number, does not fit. Too small. I'm gonna try to get the old belt back on and align it straight.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

There will be one bolt that is the pivot/fulcrum, and likely two more that lock it in place.
Three bolts total to lock the pump and adjustment down?

[74Grandville]

I don't think you understand what I was pointing out. I circled the missing bolt hole. i also put arrows where the bolts should move to if this was a 70's setup.

75cc would be correct for a 1969 #46 head. 1969 used the allunium bracket vs what you have there on your power steering pump.

[AdamIsAdam]

Ok, well, I definitely don't have a bolt hole there. See below pic of the head off the car.

When I added washers to that lower stud, it pushed the pulley bottom out. I played with different washers. The best combo was how I had it with no extra washers.

Anyway, I went ahead and buttoned it up with the old belt. The PS pulley definitely sits better with the slightly smaller belt. It seems as if the bracket hits the head and starts to cantilever outward if I use a longer belt necessitating a different adjustment.

So here's the pic of it back how it was before. I have to order two more belts Because I don't like the cog look. I'll try one in the incorrect narrower width and another in the 1/2" width. If the 1/2" works, great, otherwise I'll stick with the 3/8 since it's been problem free for nearly 3 years and 4,000 miles.

I'll circle back when I get the best belt on there.

Thanks for the chatter.





Oh, and yes, 1969 heads. Here's the date code.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

ok, so this was driving me bonkers! I had to write it out. Here are the belts laid out...

Holy crap! Resize your chart. Not everyone has two monitors side-by-side to view it on.




I can't be sure, there's only one photo posted that might show what I'm looking for, and even that one isn't angled appropriately for me to see clearly. It looks to me like you are missing one or more bolts that hold the bracket to the front of the PS pump, on the inboard side. That allows the pump to cock in the bracket assembly. Can you verify that bolt(s) are, or are not, missing from the bracket on the inboard side of the pulley shaft? It's obvious that there is a bolt on the outboard side of the shaft.

If you have an old belt, any parts store can match up a new belt using the belt-measuring tool in the "back room". They're all the same tool, but marked differently to match the part numbering system of the various belt suppliers. The tool has a split circular "pulley", you drop te belt over the top half of the "split pulley", then slide the lower half of the "split pulley" down until the belt is snug, then read the length and the width off of the gauge markings. You do have to have a parts counter person that is smarter than the belt measuring tool.

[AdamIsAdam]

Sorry about the big pic. I usually post thumbnail link images like this...

Here is a pic showing the only two bolts on that front bracket. One is the long one that goes through the alternator and the other is a short one that goes into the front of the PS pump through a round, non adjustable hole.

On the back of the pump are two studs. Both have the spacers talked about earlier.



As for the belt measuring device, I'm familiar with that. But my current belt is technically too narrow which means the wider belt might not be the same length due to it's higher position inside the pulley.

I'm comfortable that this setup will continue to be fine once I get the right belt. It's certainly not with changing everything to be "correct" on an engine that's Frankenstein anyway. Look at my water neck and hose, if I raised the accessories that might have to change, but I went out of my way to get the upper house below the after market radiator. See pic below. Can of worms.