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Old 09-29-2022, 03:05 PM
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Pay once, cry once.

At least with tool steel lifters you know they won’t be soft, plus they can be used on multiple different cams without issues.

Beats rebuilding the whole engine just because of cheap junk soft lifters.

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Old 09-29-2022, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by b-man View Post
Perhaps it’s time for us to think about tool steel solid lifters.......I recently purchased a set for $470......for my air cooled 4-cylinder VW build.....that’s only 8 lifters. All the Type I engines are pretty much stuck using solids. At least with solids occasional lash checks will let you know if any issues are starting with the valvetrain, unlike hydraulics.

A lot harder to swap cams in one of these as you have to tear it down far enough to split the engine case.

Every make is experiencing issues with soft lifters.
That's what I'm using on the new build. Current bug engine has been together close to 30 years back before all these issues and the only problem I have with it is over a years time (check lash once a year) they actually snug up a bit. Valve recession. I set them at .006" and I find a few at maybe .004" after a years time and a few thousand miles so it's not horrible. But that's the nice thing about solid flat tappets, with lash checks you can find something wrong before it becomes a problem.

Been running our Z with it's factory solid flat tappet daily for 6 years now and after break in the lash has been absolutely spot on for over 50,000 miles. Can't complain. I nitrided that cam and run the tool steel EDM lifters on it.

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  #83  
Old 09-29-2022, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62 View Post
If it’s done correctly, nitriding should never flake off. The problem I see with nitriding is it increases the diameter of the component being nitrided.
No issues with the cams I've done so far, one in daily use for 6 years now.

I've read on the subject that it may or may not increase the size of the component depending on how the process is done. None of that was even part of the discussion on the Z cam when I had that done.

Even some crankshafts were factory nitrided, my 302 Z engine was one.

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Old 09-29-2022, 05:15 PM
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Maybe go all the way with tool steel lifters with a billet steel sft cam. I inquired about it and the cams can not be done because the blanks start out as roller cam blanks before heat treating and that goes .100-.125 deep. It gets ground off taking it down to sft size and you if you re heat treat the cams are not straight anymore and the journals can not be re ground. So its a problem.
You would need a special run of steel sft cams sized right from the start so the cams can be ground and straightened after heat treating. Even with the heat treating ground off you would think the cams would be a lot harder than a iron cam.
But I bet all your cam problems would go away if it could be done.

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Old 09-29-2022, 09:03 PM
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Having Nitriding flake was only in regard to a cheap HFT lifter on a Nitrided HFT cam. Mostly because of the effect of the nitriding on the metallurgy of the cast cam core’s used for HFT cams and the softness of the lifters not wearing proper.

Nitriding on a SFT should not have near the issues with the tougher cores.


Last edited by Jay S; 09-29-2022 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 09-29-2022, 10:14 PM
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Seems like DLC type coating might be a possibility for lifters. These are the type questions I like to talk directly to the manufacturers at PRI about. We have had one bad lifter failure on the dyno in the last year. An almost stock Ford 260 V-8 for a Falcon. Low spring pressure. Killed 3 lifters anyway. All typical precautions followed. Cam break-in paste used. High zinc break-in oil, 90 lbs. seat pressure, engine pre-lubed. Still killed the lifters and cam in about 40 minutes running time. It's a complete crap shoot.

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Old 09-29-2022, 11:12 PM
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DLC coating gives lifters slick & hard surface properties.

https://www.calicocoatings.com/coati...xoCH9QQAvD_BwE

Comp Cams offers it on some of their tool steel SFT lifters.

And of interest, the internet is full of the DLC coating subject. Pros and cons....

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33940

https://classracer.com/classforum/sh...ad.php?t=75418

https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13263

.

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Old 09-30-2022, 09:28 AM
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Once the lifter body is properly hardened, we'll have to work on the sloppy machining of the lifter internals..... Once that is solved we will be good to go. As long as no one changes the location of the oil band.

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Old 09-30-2022, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
No issues with the cams I've done so far, one in daily use for 6 years now.

I've read on the subject that it may or may not increase the size of the component depending on how the process is done. None of that was even part of the discussion on the Z cam when I had that done.

Even some crankshafts were factory nitrided, my 302 Z engine was one.
We used to have marine cranks come through the plant. All of those cranks had to be subjected to a Kolene “bath” before they could be ground. Kolene are chemical salts that are heated to 750 degrees F. It is hot enough to “break” the chemical bonds of the nitriding. It does an amazing job, but I still have scars on my hands and arms from getting that crap on me. ALL aircraft recip engine cranks are nitrided. I have never seen it “chip” off one.

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Old 09-30-2022, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
Having Nitriding flake was only in regard to a cheap HFT lifter on a Nitrided HFT cam. Mostly because of the effect of the nitriding on the metallurgy of the cast cam core’s used for HFT cams and the softness of the lifters not wearing proper.

Nitriding on a SFT should not have near the issues with the tougher cores.
You DO realize that nitriding is a chemical bonding of nitrogen atoms onto the surface of metal? In my experience, I have NEVER seen nitriding “flake” off anything. Hard chrome, yes.

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Old 09-30-2022, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62 View Post
You DO realize that nitriding is a chemical bonding of nitrogen atoms onto the surface of metal? In my experience, I have NEVER seen nitriding “flake” off anything. Hard chrome, yes.
I am sure you are correct on that. Maybe flaking maybe isn’t the best wording. Gulling might better description, all I can do here is try to describe what a nitrided cam looks like when it fails, and why it fails. Or why I think it fails.

The hard shell on the surface from Nitriding is 3 or 4 thousands thick with current Nitride process’s on cast cam cores. Below that thin thickness the Rockwell hardness drops below what the cast core was originally. I can’t remember how much, something like 15 c scale. The surface hardness goes up by 15 or 20, putting the hardness 50 or better, but below that surface it drops to 20s to 30s. For reference average core hardness of most cam core is suppose to be in the lower 40s. These days it is more in the mid 30s. Nitriding is great for cam break in, then eventually with use the shell gets thin and it pulls small chips off the surface because the metal under that surface is extremely soft. Then the lobe gets wiped. Most off the shelf cams are cast of Proferall. Often the lobes are a little narrower on off the shell hyd cams using the basic Proferall cores. Solid cams are usually Proferall+, a bit better cores, and slightly wider lobes. Multiple aspects to look at for better success on cams with nitriding. Personally I would not bother nitriding a typical off the shelf cam with out a least looking at the core used for the cam.

Nitrated cams with tool steel lifters is very common on flat tappet restricted racing, all racing categories. Some jump up to p55 cores, which do not seem to like nitriding. Most don’t have $ in the budget for the billet or tool steel flat tappet cams.


Last edited by Jay S; 09-30-2022 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 09-30-2022, 11:43 AM
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A tool steel flat tappet hydraulic lifter would be nice.

Quite expensive no doubt but nice.

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Old 09-30-2022, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
I am sure you are correct on that. Maybe flaking maybe isn’t the best wording. Gulling might better description, all I can do here is try to describe what a nitrided cam looks like when it fails, and why it fails. Or why I think it fails.

The hard shell on the surface from Nitriding is 3 or 4 thousands thick with current Nitride process’s on cast cam cores. Below that thin thickness the Rockwell hardness drops below what the cast core was originally. I can’t remember how much, something like 15 c scale. The surface hardness goes up by 15 or 20, putting the hardness 50 or better, but below that surface it drops to 20s to 30s. For reference average core hardness of most cam core is suppose to be in the lower 40s. These days it is more in the mid 30s. Nitriding is great for cam break in, then eventually with use the shell gets thin and it pulls small chips off the surface because the metal under that surface is extremely soft. Then the lobe gets wiped. Most off the shelf cams are cast of Proferall. Often the lobes are a little narrower on off the shell hyd cams using the basic Proferall cores. Solid cams are usually Proferall+, a bit better cores, and slightly wider lobes. Multiple aspects to look at for better success on cams with nitriding. Personally I would not bother nitriding a typical off the shelf cam with out a least looking at the core used for the cam.

Nitrated cams with tool steel lifters is very common on flat tappet restricted racing, all racing categories. Some jump up to p55 cores, which do not seem to like nitriding. Most don’t have $ in the budget for the billet or tool steel flat tappet cams.
This makes sense. Thin hard case on a soft core is a bad idea with high contact stress.

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Old 09-30-2022, 12:46 PM
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So then what's everyone's opinion on the longevity before failure? I haven't seen that mentioned. Most of this seems to be based on race applications, probably with pretty high spring pressures I'd imagine.

I did it on my daily driver, with moderate (not crazy) spring pressures.
I've gone over 50,000 miles on mine so far and lash still hasn't budged in 6 years.

Are we thinking they'll only go 60,000? 70,000?? Because so far I haven't seen any indication it's on the verge of failure.

Just for reference, the factory crankshaft was nitrided and when I pulled it apart with over 100,000 miles it was in really nice condition. Maybe the OEM used a different process than todays cam manufactures???

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Old 09-30-2022, 02:22 PM
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The three main methods used are: gas nitriding, salt bath nitriding, and plasma nitriding.

Comp uses plasma on their cams:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...qMQds7fLMxhVCn



.

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Old 09-30-2022, 02:30 PM
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Are you talking about your DZ 302 engine Larry? Didn’t DZ cranks use tufftrided forged cranks? I don’t recall SBC nitriding factory cast cranks.


With the lash not budging after 50K miles, with a combination of the edm oiling, on a nitrided SFT cam that isn’t overly aggressive, I think it will go a long time yet. It is just getting broke in. .

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Old 09-30-2022, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
I am sure you are correct on that. Maybe flaking maybe isn’t the best wording. Gulling might better description, all I can do here is try to describe what a nitrided cam looks like when it fails, and why it fails. Or why I think it fails.

The hard shell on the surface from Nitriding is 3 or 4 thousands thick with current Nitride process’s on cast cam cores. Below that thin thickness the Rockwell hardness drops below what the cast core was originally. I can’t remember how much, something like 15 c scale. The surface hardness goes up by 15 or 20, putting the hardness 50 or better, but below that surface it drops to 20s to 30s. For reference average core hardness of most cam core is suppose to be in the lower 40s. These days it is more in the mid 30s. Nitriding is great for cam break in, then eventually with use the shell gets thin and it pulls small chips off the surface because the metal under that surface is extremely soft. Then the lobe gets wiped. Most off the shelf cams are cast of Proferall. Often the lobes are a little narrower on off the shell hyd cams using the basic Proferall cores. Solid cams are usually Proferall+, a bit better cores, and slightly wider lobes. Multiple aspects to look at for better success on cams with nitriding. Personally I would not bother nitriding a typical off the shelf cam with out a least looking at the core used for the cam.

Nitrated cams with tool steel lifters is very common on flat tappet restricted racing, all racing categories. Some jump up to p55 cores, which do not seem to like nitriding. Most don’t have $ in the budget for the billet or tool steel flat tappet cams.
I have dealt with nitrided engine components in automotive and aviation applications my entire adult life. I have never seen a properly nitrided component fail. I am not saying it can’t happen, but I have never seen it. In aviation we used hardened face valve lifter bodies. . We had horrible problems with cam lobes spalling, pitting and eroding due to inadequate oil supply. Splash oiling is the norm for the cams in aircraft recip engines. Currently, there is an STC that provides an oiling port for each cam lobe through the cam( most aircraft recip engine cams are forged steel and hollow).

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Old 09-30-2022, 06:43 PM
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HH62, I am sure we could all learn something from what it takes to get something durable enough for cams for aviation. Kind of what I recall is aircraft engines use steel cams and chilled iron lifters with heat treated faces, some are mushroom tappets, and probably HD roller set ups, all hyd. I am guessing those parts are much tougher stuff we get to run in our Pontiacs.

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Old 11-03-2022, 09:17 PM
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Picked up a set of HyLift Johnson 0951 lifters today after dissatisfaction with 2 sets of Crower lifters.

The Crowers sounded awful in the 455. I tried 1/2 turn from zero lash and 3/4 turn from zero lash, and they still sounded awful. (HarlanSharp 1.5 rockers, round port Eheads)

Fortunately TopLineAuto had a distribution center just 40 mins. away and these were in stock so no waiting for shipping.
I was in the middle of pulling the motor for an oil pan leak, so the time was right for a change.

The HyLifts were about 2X the price of the Crowers.

The most obvious difference between the Crower and the HyLift is that ridge just below the oil hole.
Crowers do not have that ridge.
It does not extend to the full diameter of the lifter, but I am not sure of it's affect.
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Old 11-09-2022, 10:26 AM
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Anybody know where Howard’s 052 hft lifters are made?

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