[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by mwritter

Boy, this thread just made a left turn.

It did. Andre needs to realize its one thing to pay for a restore and we've complimented the body shop that is doing it. I won't give him respect cause he knows how to spend money let alone planning to take credit for the restore. How do you compliment someone that is paying to have a vin swapped car restored and the only involvement he has is stopping by taking pictures and posting them here?

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by tp's lemans sport

Some people have jobs that require clean hands, you can't go to meetings with grease on your hands. These jobs are more professional and usually pay well, they create disposable income and those funds are used for hobbies. Some guy like boats, some like planes, see how fast your money goes with those hobbies.

There's room for everybody in this hobby, 30 years from now when Bryan is living on 20 acres and in his workshop he has 20 vintage Pontiacs valued at $15,000,000. He'll be singing a different tune.

I have to have clean hands for work. I am an engineer for a lucrative company and I have meetings with Kenworth and Peterbilt. I get real dirty...I just know how to use soap.

Unfortunately you are correct...there is room for everybody in this hobby.

[Andre]

There have sure been alot of assumptions made about this restoration, and that is human nature. Taking a step back and trying to look at this from a different perspective I am not suprised to see the hatred this has generated.

First let me give you some background history-

I've owned this GTO since 1980.. I bought it when I was 17 years young. I was stupid, but not stupid enough to replace the 67 Camaro that I wrecked after going to see "The Empire Strikes Back"

I've owned approximately 50-75 other pontiacs since then. Some were worse, some were better, some were mint, but none were my first Pontiac. I have not kept this car for 25 years so I can restore it, and turn around and sell it.

Of those cars that I have owned, I parted out more than 90% of them, partially restored some of them, sold some off to fund projects and kept some.

I can tell you more about 1964-70 Pontiacs than you would ever want to hear. The evidence is quite clear if you want to pull my posts from this site, and the Classical site.

I currently own a frame off restored '64 GTO post coupe (#2), a strong 64 GTO convertible (#2), a 69 GTO hartop with Judge stripes etc, a 64 GTO convertible driver, and '66 Catalina Station wagon.

I got these cars through upgrading, fixing, selling parts, buying parts etc, and learning about these cars through turning wrenches. Through all of this, I kept this rusty old '66. I had better '66's, but they were NOT my first GTO.


Juy 10, 2005 was the 25th anniversary of my ownership of this car. I've been collecting pieces for this day for a long time.

I bought new doors, hood, bumper, fenders, radiator support, front bumper, grills, seat skins etc etc,.

The last piece that was needed was a body shell. I purchased a 1966 Lemans 2 door hardtop from California to be used for pieces in the restoration.

There was alot of cutting welding and grinding involved in building a good body for this car. I can assure you that there was no VIN swapping in the restoration of this car, though the state of Florida does allow for vin removal during the restoration process, my vin plate was not removed, though my data tag was.
However, I would be remiss if I were to say that this car could not be called Frankengoat, as it will have parts from many different GTO's and Lemans. I think that this is fairly common during a restoraion of an old car.

This is not really different than any other restoration that I have done, except if I had done it 3 years ago, I would have had to repair my hood, fenders, door, radiator support, grilles etc.

My car will have its original engine, transmission, and rear end, and yes, it will be pretty nice, but no, it is not for sale.

And BTW, if you think I'm a fat cat sittin around the pool all day while this car is getting restored, think again. I am busy gettin it working 48-60 hours a week.

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by baron_

seems as though we may be eager to lynch this fella

we don't know his intentions, nor what he's even done
he may have cut the quarters off and used the fenders for his car for all we know

also, i see little problem in a rebody with the original frame so long as he doesn't try to sell the car in a few years as an 'all original' car

If he's just wanting a gorgeous car to enjoy (a personal driver to have done in a few months), i can't blame him at all -

keep up the good (hopefully) work Andre, i love the pictures regardless of what you're doing

Post #35 from thread-->http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthr...light=vin+swap

Originally Posted by Andre

It is still 100% legal in the state of Florida to remove and replace a vin tag in the process of repair and restoration. The laws clearly state the process. It does not cause the car to get a new state issued VIN.

If anyone wants to see the law in Florida that pertains to this, I'll forward the link.

For me, I have had my '66 GTO since 1980. It was rusty then, so you can imagine how rusty it is now. I've got several other GTOs, I just never had the heart to part with this matching number tripower 4 speed car.

I bought a great 66 Lemans shell to salvage the body from. I'll use repo fenders, doors, nose, hood, interior, wood wheel, valve covers, ra manifolds, air cleaners, wiring harness, front bumper, tail light bezels etc.etc etc.

Can't be any more clear as to what is going on. If he does sell he will sell as a GTO because he salvaged the chassis from the origional so that it is still numbers matching and how in the hell can you recover a 50K+ restoration by selling a rebadged car.

Have fun...I'm out of this topic. Don't understand why I am getting worked up over a fraudulent car. He says it is legal, but I doubt it is legal to do a full bods swap such as this. Keep this car in florida because if you go to a state with it where vin tampering is illegal, your car will be impounded regardless of what florida says.

Andre, if you car to keep your car 100% numbers matching you might want to change the vins that are hidden on the boddy itself. I won't tell you where to find them. Maybe you can talk someone else into telling you where they are or you can pick up some tools, but I doubt that will happen.

[Andre]

On the disc brake setup, I purchased the spindles, backing plates, caliper brackets, and booster seperately, and then got all the other stuff from NAPA. This was a mistake. I should have just bought the kit. It took too much time to hunt up all the parts and pieces and bolts to make the unit complete.

[Andre]

I have not personally taken any pictures of this car either.

Now let me go and open my christmas presents. I think I see some Hurst wheels under the tree with my name on them.

[Pecosbill]

What in the world is the matter with you guys, anyway? If any of you have spent any time talking with Andre you will find that he indeed knows how to turn a wrench and is a wealth of knowledge about our hobby. I, for one, am currently involved in a frame-off on a 64 convertible and so far I have removed every nut and bolt myself. Does that mean I begrudge Andre for the path he has chosen on his 66? Heck no. In fact, I'm learning a great deal from his pics and posts.

The great thing about these cars is we can each choose to do what we want to do to our cars, however we want to or can afford to do. It doesn't make a hill of beans if one guy wants to do it all himself, if one guy wants to farm out the work, or if another guy wants to restore, customize, clone, hot rod, or whatever else he wants to do with his car. If you don't like it, then shake your head, close your browser and keep your superior thoughts to yourself. Or better yet, use POSITIVE comments about what you are doing to convince others that yours is the route to go, instead of using negative comments to try to tear down what others are doing.

My first inclination was to invite this punk out for an old-fashioned ass-whippiin' but then I remembered (vaguely) what it was like when I was an 18 year old know-it-all...the lessons in life came harder and harder the more arrogant I was. Then one day it dawned on me what an absolute jerk I had been and how absolutely ashamed and embarrassed I was by my past behavior. Bryan will come around eventually....and he too will be embarrassed by his youthful lack of tact and discretion. I just hope he doesn't lose too many teeth in the interim.

Now let's all take a collective deep breath and drop this aspect of this thread. Andre, please ignore all of this and get back to posting your excellent, informative and helpful pics. And Merry Christmas to you all!

[Andre]

It was not long ago that I was 18.... and my opinions would have made us all cringe.

Today I respect everyones opinion, as long as it's based on fact and not conjencture, or imagination.
The fellow from Ohio has every right to his opinion as do the rest of us, regardless of if we agree or disagree with it.

Back in the Christmas of 1982, I had my '66 GTO which is now the hot topic of conversation. It was my only transportation. One of my dads friends showed up with one of the sweetest '69 GTO's I had ever seen. Liberty blue with parchment interior.

It was completely original down to the lug nuts according to him. It had been restored. Whether it was hiim, or by someone else, I don't know. I do know that every day since then, I swore I was going to have cars at least as nice as that or better.

[blue71ta]

Andre, I agree with Pecosbill. I appreciate the pics & info, please keep 'em coming. I love to see "restoration progress" topics such as this. It's unfortunate that the topic had to take a few detours, but what can ya do...

[Rapdron]

I'm amazed at the amount of criticism Andre is getting for something that some people on this board are only assuming is happening to his 66 GTO.

I am farming out the body work on my 67 GTO.
I sent most of my engine parts out to local machine shops who can do the repairs far better and quicker than I could do them.
I had the trans and rear rebuilt by an older local guy who used to race Pontiacs in the 60's and 70's.

I could have done the majority of the work myself, but my life is more than just spending my nights and weekends on my toys. I wish I were in his position to have done everything just as quickly.

Do I conside Andre a fat cat. Never met the man, so I can't say.
Judging by the the amount of time he has spent both here and at Classical offering help to others, I believe him to be a true lover of the hobby.
Andre is one of the more helpful people on PY and Classical. If he is restoring his 66 using the majority of body parts from his parts cars, good for him.
I only wish I could have my 67 done this quickly.
With 2 children both finishing college this year, there hasn't been a large surplus of spare money to do my car this quickly.

Do I believe Andre will ever sell this car? I, for one, doubt it!

Keep us updated to the progress. It's great to see!

And Merry Christmas too.

Ron

[tp's lemans sport]

RZ What soap do you use? I use Fast Orange hand cleaner, then when I shower I use hand soap, I think its Irish Spring, with a scrub brush. What do you recommend? I still get some grease in the cracks by the side of my index fingers that needs a few days to get out. I don't like using gloves when I work on my car. Maybe a pre work lotion that would prevent that accumulation. Your advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Pecosbill]

tp, try Silicone Glove. You put it on your hands and work it in before picking up the wrenches. You really don't even notice that it's there while your working, but when you go to clean up the grease comes off a little easier. It's made by Avon.

[Andre]

Well those were not Hurst wheels under the tree... just the cans that wheels must have come in. Anyone know what these are for? i guess I can use them as trash cans in the garage. Obviously I am just joking. I know the value of Hurst wheels and Hurst accessories.

Seriously though, at some point in my life I will probably have to sell all my cars, and I don't have any problem telling anyone who is buying my car what it took to restore it.

I hope it will be closer to 25 years from now as opposed to 5 years from now, but you never know what kinda curve ball life will throw you.

I might have to convert my cars to electrcial power, or alternative fuel sources? Who knows.
They are just cars.

I'll keep posting pictures of the resto as they become available.

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by Pecosbill

tp, try Silicone Glove. You put it on your hands and work it in before picking up the wrenches. You really don't even notice that it's there while your working, but when you go to clean up the grease comes off a little easier. It's made by Avon.

This is a good idea. Latex gloves go a long distance too. My hands are almost as clean when I am finishing as when I started.


For the record, I don't have a problem with Andre paying for his resto. He gets smart and states he is going to take the credit for the resto and that is where I draw the line. It is an insult. I'd have a hard time not spitting in someones face that tried pulling this line on me.

[rzrektd]

Originally Posted by Rapdron

I'm amazed at the amount of criticism Andre is getting for something that some people on this board are only assuming is happening to his 66 GTO.

Ron,
Read all the posts that I have posted. Given is the information that proves he swapped vins. If a post from Andre that includes him admitting he is going to swap a lemans body can only be an assumption then I am Santa Claus.

[rzrektd]

[QUOTE=Pecosbill]
"What in the world is the matter with you guys, anyway?"
I have problems with people that swap vin plates. Its my opion/my problem and I still did compliment on the resto.


"If any of you have spent any time talking with Andre you will find that he indeed knows how to turn a wrench and is a wealth of knowledge about our hobby."
Never questioned any of this. Bryan has to answer this

"I, for one, am currently involved in a frame-off on a 64 convertible and so far I have removed every nut and bolt myself."
You do understand under todays lack of ethic, you may be restoring a vin swapped car? How does that make you feel that you cannot accurately trace your cars history? Honestly to me these days a GTO is just as valuable as a lemans because of this.

"In fact, I'm learning a great deal from his pics and posts."
Please elaborate because all I am seeing are painted parts put back together nothing technical. I am also seeing excellent work and progress excellent for motivation.

"If you don't like it, then shake your head, close your browser and keep your superior thoughts to yourself. Or better yet, use POSITIVE comments about what you are doing to convince others that yours is the route to go, instead of using negative comments to try to tear down what others are doing."

The only things I have had to comment on are the vin and claiming to take credit for the work only after I used POSITIVE comments on how nice the resto looks. The GREAT THING about America is we have the 1st amendment and you are definitely not going to take that from me nor do I care if you don't like what I am writing in this thread. If you don't like it, you can respect it or just use your own advice and ...close your browser

"My first inclination was to invite this punk out for an old-fashioned ass-whippiin' but then I remembered (vaguely) what it was like when I was an 18 year old know-it-all"

Bryan does not have very good computer/personal communication skills like most of us here. Just because he is 18 doesn't mean a thing. Us younger generation is the future. No need to start name calling because it is not necessary. You say he has a mouth on him..just look at yourself. Also since you are considering offering them, if you ever want to invite me to an old-fashion ass-whippin' just let me know. I am passed the 18 y/o excuse you used and I am really curious to know if your mouth writes checks your A$$ can't cash.


Andre,

I hope you get those wheels. They will look good on the car!


Merry Christmas all!!

[Andre]

I guess when I made the comments about saving the radiator cap, gas cap and oil filter cap so I could install them myself, and take credit for the restoration, that not everyone realized it was a joke.

For the many years that I have been going to car shows, I meet people who have "restored" their cars. At least this is what they tell you. In reality, the car was usually restored by a shop, or a previous owner. This is what I was poking fun at.

Unfortunately, this seemed to send this topic in a tailspin.

[6t7gto]

Andre,
i.too, have to admit that i felt you have some deep pockets.
i was telling my relatives about your car.
to me, when someone takes their car to a shop, such as you have described and posted pics about, it has to cost some serious money.

but anyway, good luck with your project and i hope it comes out as nice, if not better, as you expect.

david


p.s. c'mon tell us the truth. you won the lottery, right?

[Pecosbill]

For the record, I have been the victim of a VIN tag swap. Not only was the car not a "true" GTO, but it turns out to have been stolen about 15 years prior to my buying it. Fortunately for me the DOT was unable to locate the previous owner and the court did ultimately award me title to the car. I finished up my restoration and whenever I sell the car the total story will be told. There is no difference whatsoever between this car and a "real" GTO, but a whole lot of would-be buyers will drop off the radar screen because of the car's history. Someone will get a car that's in tip-top shape, is a lot of fun to drive and draws stares and compliments wherever it goes for a good bit less than what the "real thing" would sell for.

But none of that means that what Andre is doing with his car is intentionally trying to defraud anyone. Andre has had this car for 25 years and has no intention of parting with it unless forced to. Rzrektd, you have assumed that Andre is involved in a VIN tag swap without a shred of evidence to support that assumption. You have no idea as to how much of the original body he is using and certainly have no proof that he is just swapping VIN tags and using the Lemans body. Yet even after Andre gave us his assurance that there was no VIN tag swap going on, you continued to question his integrity on the subject. There was no call for that.

This whole matter again brings up the question as to just what comprises a "true" GTO; if the front fender is from a Lemans and the rest from a GTO is the whole car now tainted? No? Well then how about if the Lemans' quarters, fenders and deck lid are used? What if the GTO is broadsided and the whole body is replaced over the original frame and drivetrain? Is that still a goat? This topic has been beaten to death is previous threads on this board without resolution.

As to Andre's comments regarding future claims to having done some of the work on the restoration, I don't see how anyone who read those comments couldn't see that they were in jest.

Rzrektd, your accusations are way out of line as are Bryan's "rich-snobs" comments. (Oh, and by the way, if you'll take the time to read the 1st Amendment you'll find that it only pertains to the government infringing on your freedom of speech, not a private organization. Just an FYI.)

You and Bryan have questioned the integrity and insulted without cause a respected member of this board. There was and is no call for that. My comment "My first inclination was to invite this punk out for an old-fashioned ass-whippiin'" was designed to show my own inner 18 year old coming out, but if you'll take the time to read the entire comment you will see that I at no time called Bryan out, but rather tried to explain away his words as a youthful indiscretion that he will someday look back on and shake his head at his own behavior.

You, on the other hand, appear to be directly calling me out. Yes, my A$$, as you put it, has cashed many checks in my lifetime, more so than you'll ever know, and I can assure you that it is still highly capable of doing so. If you want to come on down to San Antonio and check the balance in my account, by all means do so. Or if that's too far for you, I'll be in Pittsburgh to play in a ball game at PNC on June 10th and will be glad to take up the subject with you at that time.

Let's move this to PM's so that the rest of the PY Forum can get back to enjoying what Andre is posting.

[Andre]

Well as much as I would hope to win the lottery, I didn't. Of course you have to buy tickets to be able to win, and since I have never done anything in life to deserve winning the lottery, I don't buy tickets.

Now whether or not I have deep pockets or not depends on where you are standing.

Without going into a bunch of detail here goes- Both my wife and I work.
She drives a 2002 Honda Accord that has been paid for. I drive a 1996 Ford Explorer with a broken odometer that probably has 145000 miles or more. My house payment including taxes and insurance is less than $2000/month.
Everything that I make selling parts, cars, or memorabilia goes back into the hobby. I don't use house money, and car money does not go into the house.