[1oldgoat]

I have a May 66 dated WS bare block that I am considering selling. I have had it for a long time but don't have a use for it. I believe it is .030 over now. It has been in dry storage for many years and has a light coat of surface rust but no scaly rust. What is it worth? I don't want to give it away but I do want to be reasonable on price to help out someone who needs it for an original Tri-power GTO. Thanks.

[ZeGermanHam]

I'm curious to hear what others say, but to me a bare WS 389 at .030 with caps would be in the ballpark of $800. For the right buyer who specifically needs a WS with your date code, possibly a little more. Listings for Pontiac 389s and 400s are all over the place price-wise. Some sellers are delusional.

[Andre]

As I have watched builders use their correct font stamp kits to "manufacture" authentic looking WS, and a variety of other codes of engines, I don't put much value on the letter stamping. However the date of the motor might be of interest to the restorer trying to make his car "numbers matching".

[60sstuff]

I agree with Andre.

Restamps on the front pad has been down to a science over the years.
Pontiac, Chevrolet etc. have a big problem with the fake stamps today.

It’s the Factory “funky” raised casting at the back of the block next to the distributor showing the build date that’s uniquely impossible to change.

[1oldgoat]

I am confident that this block is not a restamped block.

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk

[b-man]

$1500.

It’s a Tri-Power GTO 4-speed block from the last year of the Tri-Power cars.

Enough said.

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by 1oldgoat

I am confident that this block is not a restamped block.

I don't think Andre was suggesting that your block is re-stamped, but rather he was saying that there is perhaps less value in the WS stamping than you might think since it can be easily faked, and the numbers at the back are of greater significance these days.

Originally Posted by b-man

$1500.

It’s a Tri-Power GTO 4-speed block from the last year of the Tri-Power cars.

Enough said.

$1500 even though it's already been bored .030 over and will likely require more? Not disagreeing with you, just curious.

[b-man]

A 30 over block likely can go 40 over or if need be 60.

You’re looking at a custom piston when it comes to the old 389s and 421s these days, as long as there are rings available you can bore it to pretty much any size.

If it was already at 60 over that changes things, but 30 isn’t bad.

They’re not growing on trees, you’re fortunate to find one at all I’m thinking.

[ZeGermanHam]

Yeah, they're definitely not growing on trees. They're still out there, but there is no escaping the fact that they stopped making them in '66. I guess I just have a somewhat odd mentality where I think of .030 blocks being "half used". That doesn't mean they go for half of market value, but just not top dollar. Maybe 75% of what a standard bore would typically sell for. But it's very possible that I'm the odd duck and others don't think the same way as I do.

[Goatracer1]

The over bore wouldn't bother me. It's a 55 year old block and only bored .030". If you rebuild it again and do it well are you expecting to drive it another 55 years? In another 25 years people may not even want these cars. Sad.

[grandam1979]

Originally Posted by Andre

As I have watched builders use their correct font stamp kits to "manufacture" authentic looking WS, and a variety of other codes of engines, I don't put much value on the letter stamping. However the date of the motor might be of interest to the restorer trying to make his car "numbers matching".

How do you get one of these correct font stamp kits?

[G.T.O.boy]

Franks has a 389 WS block for $650 and shipping around $250. It is original only once and there is someone out there that can tell if it is on original as well as not original but still correct. It would have to be the exact original block from that car to justify $1500. Over the counter blocks either had no stamps or an SR on them. I have even seen poorly faked SR blocks now. The block numbers (numerical sequence) for the early cars are often listed on the PHS documents kind of like a a separate vin for the block as the blocks have a sequence number and the line knew which block went into each car. Each plant was different, but the Pontiac and the Kansas cars seem to have more PHS info. I have seen this many times and when pressed the owner will confess the block is not the factory block. This helped track issues after production for warranty at the factory level. The vin on blocks was just for the police and theft issues, but it was easier for warranty concerns as well, in place of the two production numbers of block and vin. There are also examples with original owner documents that the engine date date is after the car as it may have had issues before leaving the factory. Many of the early cars that are said to have an original block have close replacements. A more correct replacement if the block is gone is to have an SR block, if my car was missing the factory block I would search for an SR block with a date after the build date. For concours they are not supposed to deduct for an SR block. This would be for a warranty or engine replacement by a dealer.

[tom s]

Are 66 WS 4 bolt cap blocks?Tom

[b-man]

Originally Posted by tom s

Are 66 WS 4 bolt cap blocks?Tom

No, all GTO 389 blocks are 2-bolt main.

[Joe's Garage]

I'd have no problem paying that for a correct, original tripower 389 block if I owned a tripower GTO.

You might want to invest in having the block hot-tanked, cleaned, magnafluxed, everything (bores, mains, etc) measured and have the cylinder walls sonic-tested. That way the buyer would know EXACTLY what he was getting.

Good luck!

[ZeGermanHam]

Originally Posted by G.T.O.boy

Franks has a 389 WS block for $650 and shipping around $250.

Examples like this are why I previously said above that an 389 WS with .030 overbore is worth roughly $800. It seems that if you keep your eyes out, you can usually find one for under $1k. That said, the example you cited at Frank's is an .060 overbore and says it'll need to be sleeved.

On a tangent related to block date codes and sequencing, I recently read a 5-part interview of someone who worked in the Pontiac, MI plant for over 20 years starting in October, 1963. The interview was conducted in the early '90s I believe. Super interesting read. Here is an excerpt:

They did whichever way was the fastest. If they had a motor that had a bad head on it, maybe one of the spark plugs was twisted off, or something of that nature, instead of pulling that engine down and changing the head, they would pull the whole motor out, put a complete new engine in it, and send that damaged motor back to final repair. Them guys would either repair it, and then it would be installed on the line at a later date, or they would disassemble that and split the parts off. They would go to service parts.

Maybe the whole motor would go for a service engine someplace. Another thing you hear a lot of people talking about - for a car to be correct, the engine has to be built, they say, from thirty to ninety days before the production of the body. That is only a "house rule." That's not pat. I've seen the train cars come in with a whole load of Pontiac motors that had been setting with dust on 'em and bird manure all over 'em. These engines had been setting probably six months someplace. And they were going to get put in production-built cars.

Nowadays, with that particular engine on a GTO that some guy was restoring, or somebody else was seeking to buy, they'd say "look, this motor was built nine months before the build date on this car, that's not right." That could very well be the correct motor for that car. That would probably happen later on in the year, but it could happen anytime. An engine that was into production early in the model year could have had a defect in it. They set it aside, it got shoved around for two months before it got repaired, then when it did get repaired it come back into the production line, and maybe it sat around another two months before it was to be used. Now there's four months difference in there.

This excerpt is from part 4 of the interview. If interested in reading the whole thing, see links below:

Part 1: LINK
Part 2: LINK
Part 3: LINK
Part 4: LINK
Part 5: LINK

[b-man]

The price difference between a block that’s been bored pretty much to the limit and one that’s ready for the next overbore might be pretty substantial.

Not too many buyers would be considering a 60 over 389 block.

[Andre]

The overbore situation doesn't bother me. When I was restoring my 66 GTO in 2005, the original 389 was already .060 over (from my 1980 rebuild) At this point in 2005 4 cylinders were pitted badly from the engine sitting for 20 years in the car. It was a no brainer to have them sleeved and bored to .060 to match the others. In retrospect, and considering the minor cost of sleeving compared to the cost of restoration, I should have probably sleeved all cylinders and went to standard bore.

[chrisp]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

I agree with Andre.

Restamps on the front pad has been down to a science over the years.
Pontiac, Chevrolet etc. have a big problem with the fake stamps today.

It’s the Factory “funky” raised casting at the back of the block next to the distributor showing the build date that’s uniquely impossible to change.

Easier then 1 would think , have seen it done & only for owner purposes.

[geeteeohguy]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

I agree with Andre.

Restamps on the front pad has been down to a science over the years.
Pontiac, Chevrolet etc. have a big problem with the fake stamps today.

It’s the Factory “funky” raised casting at the back of the block next to the distributor showing the build date that’s uniquely impossible to change.

I have seen raised casting numbers forged on Corvettes since the 1980's. Welding and grinding, even JB weld. The Chevy guys think re-stamping and numbers swapping is kosher. I think it's deceptive and criminal, but what do I know. I know Pontiac guys (real ones) would never do it. In my personal case, I have a WT code replacement block in my '65 GTO and would not want or need a WS code block ever, since I have the original protect-o-plate which shows the original E.U.N, which would not match the original, blown up WS motor without a re-stamp. I think Bart is right on with the $1500 price tag. I have built up '66 vintage 389's .060" over and have used std. 400 pistons with 068 cams with zero issues. If I built a 389 today, it would get custom dished slugs.