[RAII 4-speed]

I have had this set of poverty caps for over 30 years and want to use them on my 1965 GTO. Can anyone tell me if they are correct for a 1965?
THANKS

[b-man]

Original 1964-1970 poverty caps have 'PONTIAC MOTOR DIVISION' on them.

Your caps are the later version from 1971 if I'm not mistaken, also sold as replacements.

['ol Pinion head]

From what I've run across, the PONTIAC-PONTIAC version showed up during '70 model on Firebirds. Base '71 A-body models, its most likely that some early cars received Pontiac-Motor-Division style. I've parted two very original Pontiac plant A-bodys, one an 01D built Pontiac plant T-37 4 door Sedan, another an April built Pontiac plant 6cyl hardtop T-37. The 6cyl, by the inspection sticker, had been off the road, since '79. Both had PONTIAC-PONTIAC style caps.

Have pulled many original Pontiac-Motor-Division style poverty caps off mid '60's Catalinas & A-bodys in old yards where they had been setting since the 70's. Many had splits on the edges, not perfect, appeared very original.

[60sstuff]

Look at "ANY" 64-65 hub cap (poverty caps to full wheel covers) except the wire cover and Rally I's and they all say PONTIAC MOTOR DIVISION around the center.

Although I don't have a pic of the 65 poverty cap on file, I do show two full wheel covers for 65 Lemans series, plus the 65 Big Cat bolt on wheel caps.

[GTO JOHN]

I thought the 64-70 poverty caps were the same and said PONTIAC MOTOR DIVISION. I do know the PONTIAC PONTIAC caps were later or over the counter units.

I would love to verify what the 65 caps should look like.

[Jeff Hamlin]

FWIW
Here is my Friend Don's '65 he has owned it since new and she has never been restored.
He has detailed the hell out of it but still has all the oem bits & pieces.

IIRC The PMD caps ran from 64-71 and the PP caps started showing up 70-71
I think the 72 had an arrow head on the cap, but possible a few came with PP caps?

[RAII 4-speed]

I did a search on E bay as well as a google search and did not find any that have PP on them. They all had PMD on them. Canada perhaps?

[Andre]

Pretty much what everyone else has said is what I've seen on original cars and factory literature.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hamlin

I think the 72 had an arrow head on the cap, but possible a few came with PP caps?

I don't know what year the arrowhead came on the caps, but I know that they did in 1976.

My first new car with the factory trim rings and the arrowhead poverty caps - car had less than 200 miles on it when the photo was taken.

[RAII 4-speed]

Originally Posted by Andre

Pretty much what everyone else has said is what I've seen on original cars and factory literature.

I understand what everyone is finding, what I would like to see is the PP cap shown anywhere in pics and or factory literature.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by RAII 4-speed

I understand what everyone is finding, what I would like to see is the PP cap shown anywhere in pics and or factory literature.

Here is a link to many of the other Pontiac brochures for several years of Pontiac sales brochures, but I didn't find any poverty caps.

http://www.lov2xlr8.no/pontiac.html

Typically, sales information had a tendency to show the up level items - they wanted you to spend more money...

[Andre]

I looked through my literature, and some literature for '71 A body show the poverty cap as being the stainless non-ribbed cap with the red arrowhead.
Another piece of literature- the white covered 71 "Pure Pontiac" brochure only showed a Firebird with ribbed poverty caps. The resolution is not good, so you can tell if it is the PMD or the PP ribbed cap.

['ol Pinion head]

The artwork kicked out by the advertising studios, many months before the cars were introduced has been proven over & over to be just that... artwork. Close but often with errors when it comes to details. Ck out the '71 Pontiac brochures, there is a '71 GTO convert in the brochure with a chrome button AM-FM radio/stereo. The artwork is somewhat dark of this "car", & the chrome buttons created contrast in the shadows, that's it. Some owners, for over 30 years, have used that artwork as license to install chrome button AM-FM stereo's out of GP's into their Pontiac A-bodys & show them as original restored... that is not how those A-bodys were were built. Started pulling original AM-FM's out of '69-72 Pontiac A-bodys over 3 decades ago & yet to run across such a deal.

Being printed many months before the actual models release, the service manuals also have errors in them when it comes to certain parts. I noticed several glaring errors flipping through my well worn '71 service manual looking for wheel cover representation for the OP.

Original buildsheets can also have errors in respect to what actual parts/components were originally used on a car's build. Have noted this several times, as the '71 Pontiac plant continued to use JT as the 14x6 rally 2 wheel code in the wheel box, many months after Pontiac plant had gone to KU's (just like other '71 Pontiac A-body plants). Know of several other examples.

What it comes down to, for an authentic cutting edge restoration. If ones concerned about something being incorrect, or is missing parts on an original car, one needs to study other original cars out of the same plant, same time of the year. Compare those results to the exploded views out of the assembly manual, watch for running changes being signed off on in the upper box. there are little idiosyncrasies between details on vehicles out of one plant versus another. This becomes very evident when one becomes deeply immersed in cutting edge restorations of same bodystyle vehicles out of different plants during same model year.

Going by artwork & black & white often generic multi-year usage " stock pictures" opens one up to making false assumptions. Hope this helps.

[John V.]

OPH seems to have sorted out the approx. change from the "Pontiac Motor Division" style to the "Pontiac Pontiac" style.

The '66 MPC shows the Standard Hubcap for the Pontiac and Tempest, illustrations included for all '63, '64, & '65 styles.

The '64 standard hubcap was brand new for '64 and was carried over thru '66 according to the '66 MPC.

The illustration in the MPC makes it easy to view the details.

In Gr. 5.858 you will also find it well described as:

1964-66 All w/14 wheels.........(10 15/32 dia.) "Pontiac Motor Division"-42 outer ribs.... 4 9774609

The 4 indicates the qty used per vehicle, the p/n is 9774609.

The styling of the '64 hubcap was somewhat reminiscent of the '63 Deluxe Wheel Cover p/n 9700800, they also had 42 ribs but of course were full wheel dia.

Based on what OPH has found, the "Pontiac Pontiac" seems to have been just a freshening of the style.

According to the GM Parts History, if I interpret it correctly, p/n 9774609 was replaced by p/n 5738083 in March, 1975.

In the 1977 Firebird MPC, Gr. 5.858, lists p/n 9774609 for '67-'69 Firebird. Basically same description as I provided from the '66 MPC except the dia. says 10 1/2".

For the '70-'71 Firebird, it lists p/n 5738083, description is "ALL-STANDARD-STAMPED PONTIAC-"

So it appears that the 5738083 was virtually identical to the previous style, just changed "PONTIAC MOTOR DIVISION" to "PONTIAC PONTIAC" and by March, 1975 the earlier style was discontinued and PMD began to substitute the later style for Service Replacement.

In the '74 Tempest/Grand Prix MPC Gr. 5.858, the listing also supports what OPH reported.

'69-'71 p/n 9774609 "Pontiac Motor Division"
'71 p/n 5738083 "Pontiac"

So there was overlap in '71. Apparently you might have received either style on a '71 Tempest or Grand Prix (and hopefully a complete matched set from the factory, regardless of which style was installed!).

'71 appears to be the last year they were used, a different p/n and style is indicated for '72.

The good news, the ones you have (p/n 5738083) are a fairly rare style, having seen use in '70-'71 on the Firebird and some '71 use on the Tempest/Grand Prix (I'm not sure about the big Pontiacs).

The bad news, the ones you have are not correct for a '65.

[RAII 4-speed]

I plan on using them as a second set of wheels keeping the original wheels with the spinner hub caps the car was born with.
It is Ok with me if they say PP or PMD as they would not be correct "as ordered" for my car.
I guess the good news would be if someone needed a set of PP I would trade for a set of PMD repo or not. I do not think the PP ones are reproduced so anyone needing a set let me know. They are as perfect as NOS.

['ol Pinion head]

They will look nice RAII 4-speed!

[RAII 4-speed]

Lol yes they would. I sold mine......

[davidgto]

I too have asset of the Pontiac Pontiac caps in mint condition should anyone be interested.

davidgto@hotmail.com

[Jerry H.]

A few years ago this subject was debated in detail on this site. At one time I had accumulated about 50-60 of these poverty caps in both styles in various conditions. After going through these, I found a few of the 'Pontiac-Pontiac' ones, including one that looked NOS. Even the inside of the cap was perfectly clean. And lo and behold, there was a maple leaf stamp, with some other designator that I can't recall, which should of course designate a Canadian cap. I went through the other 'Pontiac-Pontiac' caps to see if they were the same but they were all so nasty on the inside that I could not tell. I think I took a picture of the inside of that cap, which should be in my post on the other thread. Also, the 'Pontiac-Pontiac' caps seemed to be made of material that was quite a bit lighter than the regular stainless of the PMD caps. At first I thought it might be aluminum, but then it could have been just a lighter grade of stainless.

Seems there was some more information in the previous thread. I'll try to locate it.

[RAII 4-speed]

hummm I will look at the ones I started this post with and take some pics of the back of them...