[johnta1]

I agree also.

[Robert C.]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Agree, I don't think anyone expects SBC prices . Just something stronger than a typical 400 block with braced lifter bores cast in. . 4.12 bore to 4.35 bore max perhaps?

You Guys have any idea what it cost to make engine molds and how many patterns there are? 300k or more these days. Or if you steal them not much. The casting of small lots cost a ton of money.

If we made them in India or China. Would people buy them? Probably not.

Market is not big enough to warrant the cost to get the quantity to get volume pricing.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by Robert C.

You Guys have any idea what it cost to make engine molds and how many patterns there are? 300k or more these days. Or if you steal them not much. The casting of small lots cost a ton of money.

If we made them in India or China. Would people buy them? Probably not.

Market is not big enough to warrant the cost to get the quantity to get volume pricing.

Your very logical and intelligent post asks questions of some who are just LOST and have no Idea what you just said. like democrats that are liberal with other peoples money.....NOT their own.

Why would they think that a "sportsmen" version would be cheaper? IDK....the molds and r&d to copy a stock block and make it slightly better is more expensive than just casting off those existing.......SMH. Theres 5 versions of aftermarket blocks already and NOW an option to customize to needs......AND THE PEANUT GALLERY WANTS A CHEAPER WEAKER BLOCK?



WOW!

[mike leech]

AND THANK YOU/FRANK AND THE KRE/MELLOT for supplying us with more than factory leftovers!!!!!!!!

[ho428]

Do you not think you'd sell many more Sportsman blocks than the 10% or less that want a max effort block?
Do you plan to spend that 300K on the new max engine molds for the 10% market?

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Your very logical and intelligent post asks questions of some who are just LOST and have no Idea what you just said. like democrats that are liberal with other peoples money.....NOT their own.

Why would they think that a "sportsmen" version would be cheaper?

WOW!

We already have a SHP block. Stock Horse Power
If the molds cost the same,using less material isn't going to make the block any cheaper.

[Robert C.]

Just casting a raw cast iron block with no shipping to the machine shop is $1,100.00 our cost.

Believe me people we, are not making a ton of money doing this. Now you add 5 steel main caps, ARP bolts, Studs and CNC machine cutting inserts and end mills with shipping cost and other material. See where I am heading?

Got the picture? Lucky it is as cheap as it is.

We melt 2700 pounds of Cast Iron to get 4 blocks. The gating and core risers take up the rest of the material. They cut that off and can't use it again in making more blocks.

Like I stated before. Frank and I have taken the Pontiac business from a hobby to a industry by taking on the Indian Adventures Block business. Our customers are the ones that have had biggest hand in this transition.

I would like say we both are very lucky and grateful that we have this amount of support from the Pontiac community. Our customers are so welcome and we are so bless to have you all as our costumers.

Please keep using our products and be safe at the track and on the street.

Ask more questions. Glad to respond and hope we have been helpful in answering them.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by gene simmons

We already have a SHP block. Stock Horse Power
If the molds cost the same,using less material isn't going to make the block any cheaper.

Not sure here.....but I believe you understood my post



Because that was my point exactly.......It will not be cheaper. At all

[Robert C.]

Nothing is cheap anymore.

And yes I got the point.

Thanks for asking.

[ho428]

Originally Posted by gene simmons

We already have a SHP block. Stock Horse Power
If the molds cost the same,using less material isn't going to make the block any cheaper.

I appreciate what AP does, but it looks like the average guy is getting left out as the market for an offset bore, max cube, custom crank engine is pretty freakin small. Seems like a lot of cost and effort would be going into a very tiny market percentage.

Why do you think the other guys can sell so many different SBC, BBC, SBF and 351W blocks so cheap? A good affordable supply creates the demand which creates the supply. And those guys can buy way more stock junk yard blocks than we can, yet the aftermarket supply does well with them for sportsman racers and street/strip builders.

If Pontiac gets driven into the max effort race engine column with little or dying support for the larger number for Sportsman racers, where will we end up? Running Chevy and LS engines.

[BILL BOWMAN1]

Originally Posted by ho428

I appreciate what AP does, but it looks like the average guy is getting left out as the market for an offset bore, max cube, custom crank engine is pretty freakin small. Seems like a lot of cost and effort would be going into a very tiny market percentage.

Why do you think the other guys can sell so many different SBC, BBC, SBF and 351W blocks so cheap? A good affordable supply creates the demand which creates the supply. And those guys can buy way more stock junk yard blocks than we can, yet the aftermarket supply does well with them for sportsman racers and street/strip builders.

If Pontiac gets driven into the max effort race engine column with little or dying support for the larger number for Sportsman racers, where will we end up? Running Chevy and LS engines.

This is a business. In the time it took you to type this, they sold a gazillion Chevrolet blocks, this is why.

[mike leech]

Originally Posted by ho428

I appreciate what AP does, but it looks like the average guy is getting left out as the market for an offset bore, max cube, custom crank engine is pretty freakin small. Seems like a lot of cost and effort would be going into a very tiny market percentage.

Why do you think the other guys can sell so many different SBC, BBC, SBF and 351W blocks so cheap? A good affordable supply creates the demand which creates the supply. And those guys can buy way more stock junk yard blocks than we can, yet the aftermarket supply does well with them for sportsman racers and street/strip builders.

If Pontiac gets driven into the max effort race engine column with little or dying support for the larger number for Sportsman racers, where will we end up? Running Chevy and LS engines.

Better question......maybe they would do it if a group buy for say 200 blocks could be arranged.

could you find 199 more guys with $2500 to spend on this right now? would saving $500 entice that many?

NO

they are catering to what market is there.....hard as it is to believe.

[Robert C.]

Originally Posted by ho428

I appreciate what AP does, but it looks like the average guy is getting left out as the market for an offset bore, max cube, custom crank engine is pretty freakin small. Seems like a lot of cost and effort would be going into a very tiny market percentage.

Why do you think the other guys can sell so many different SBC, BBC, SBF and 351W blocks so cheap? A good affordable supply creates the demand which creates the supply. And those guys can buy way more stock junk yard blocks than we can, yet the aftermarket supply does well with them for sportsman racers and street/strip builders.

If Pontiac gets driven into the max effort race engine column with little or dying support for the larger number for Sportsman racers, where will we end up? Running Chevy and LS engines.

We are not trying to leave the average guy out.

Remember Frank and I were and are the average guys too.

To get a block to hold the power that the average guy can make today is the IA II Std. Block. It can't be made cheaper. If we did, you would have a stock block type block.

If you hard block a stock block and added steel main caps and a lifter bore brace it would weight the same as a IA II and cost you $2,500.00 bucks or more to get to that point. And for a few hundred bucks you can buy a IA II STD block that will last years, have a good resale value and can go to 1800 HP just for a few hundred bucks more then a modifying a stock block. That is why we did the block the way we did. We are think of the average guy too.

Why waste your time building a stock block when the cost of the parts are the same as if you did a big HP motor?

[cgeise]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Your very logical and intelligent post asks questions of some who are just LOST and have no Idea what you just said. like democrats that are liberal with other peoples money.....NOT their own.

Why would they think that a "sportsmen" version would be cheaper? IDK....the molds and r&d to copy a stock block and make it slightly better is more expensive than just casting off those existing.......SMH. Theres 5 versions of aftermarket blocks already and NOW an option to customize to needs......AND THE PEANUT GALLERY WANTS A CHEAPER WEAKER BLOCK?



WOW!

Mike This comes from Dart and the other Block manufacturers -- THEY LIST a sportsman block at a lesser cost than the top end stuff -- usually cast caps and less frills --- but that's where he is coming from. Just an FYI no pantie bunching here

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by mike leech

Your very logical and intelligent post asks questions of some who are just LOST and have no Idea what you just said. like democrats that are liberal with other peoples money.....NOT their own.

Why would they think that a "sportsmen" version would be cheaper? IDK....the molds and r&d to copy a stock block and make it slightly better is more expensive than just casting off those existing.......SMH. Theres 5 versions of aftermarket blocks already and NOW an option to customize to needs......AND THE PEANUT GALLERY WANTS A CHEAPER WEAKER BLOCK?

WOW!

Thank You very much, Bob and Frank, for doing this. It is time for a change to another level. If CHEAP is really the "driver" there are lots of Alternate GM offerings out there from the other guys.

Tom V.

[dci]

Keep in mind guy's that our audience is very small, and anyone that manufactures products for traditional Pontiac's have to charge bigger margins to recoup their investment. I don't know how many blocks AP and KRE have sold, but I would be willing to bet combined it's under 2,000 total from the time they started selling them. I would also be willing to bet that there are close to 1,000 Chevy blocks sold a month. You guy's do the math, our products are going to be more expensive no matter how you try and dissect it. Even if they are only selling 500 Chevy blocks a month we still cannot compete price wise. Demand and volume is what brings prices down provided the manufacture can keep up with the demand. Our little community is very fortunate that we have some die hard companies willing to even make the investment for such low returns. What we can all do as a group to try and increase the demand. Is get our cars to the tracks whether it be the drag strip, circle tracks, road courses, autocross, class racing or whatever arena that you like so we get more exposure. I cannot tell you how many people I talk to that still don't know we even have an aftermarket block available. What that tells me is that the handful that do purchase these products are not getting out enough and letting others know. Worse yet the ones that do know are not purchasing these products and building their own dream machines. Please don't take this as ranting, I'm just trying to shed some light on the situation to help everyone understand why it cost what it cost.

[cfmcnc]

When you consider the total cost of prepping a stock block and the total cost of all the parts to build a complete Pontiac High Performance engine ,Its a No -Brainer to go directly to the aftermarket IA2 block with all its advantages,Its like the guy said to me he is going to redo his Race engine to run on pump gas cause Race gas costs went up,So how many gallons of race gas are used in a weekend of racing that would kill someones budgit if the price went up 2-3 bucks a gallon.How much will it cost to redo the race gas engine to run on 93 pump .Got another bulletin for the uninformed,In many areas of the country todays pump gas is not what it is supposed to be.Manufacturers can manipulate the formula for more profit.Most cars on the road today are EFI managed so it will adjust tune for data presented ,this allows for gasoline mfgs to water down the product .Bill C.

[GREATGTO]

The. economy is on shakey ground around the world. Invest with caution on endeavors such as this.

[455firebird1969]

Supply and demand is one of the most fundamental concepts of economics. Our equilibrium is on the left side of the supply and demand slope, due to the factors already discussed. That's OK, I like the idea of a large CI Pontiac that looks like a Pontiac. This is what we need work with the new or refined heads available currently. I can't wait to unleash some of this new engineering at the local drag strip!

[mgarblik]

I think I may have put this in another post about a budget aftermarket Pontiac block, so forgive if I did. The only place I can see a possible savings of a few hundred bucks would be to build the IA II with iron caps and bolts. But possibly the cost of the cores and the core box would be as much as the steel caps in the quantity they are making. Also wouldn't be near as strong. A stock block will support 500+ HP with reliability if properly machined and with decent parts. If you want to really go racing, the IA II is waiting for you. I don't see a real up-side for All Pontiac to purposely make and sell a cheap, inferrior block to the one they already have out. Their goal, I imagine, is to improve the product, which is the direction they are headed. Leave it to the Chinese to figure out how to make a cheap, brittle, poorly machined, aftermarket Pontiac block for the budget minded. It will go well with the cast steel crank and some of the crappy rods they already sell.