[reacp911]

Since I've had dismal results with the stock or canton shallow race pan on the track, and I don't want an accusump, I've decided to custom modify a pan as show below. The drawing is of the insert into the deep part of the pan. I'll also put a dam with trap door in front of the #1 bearing to prevent oil going into the timing cover under braking. I'll modify either a stock or the canton. Since I'm using a full length pontiac windage tray, I'm not sure there is enough clearance to allow unimpeded oil drainback using the stock pan, in which case I'll butcher the canton. I can reuse the canton trap door baffles. I've modified a chevy bb oil pickup to use, or I could use a milodon or canton 1" deepened pickup.

The main design criterion is to get oil flowing back to the pickup as fast as possible. As a result, the insert is to fit tightly around the sides, and the oil gets back into the baffled areas only if the pickup is totally submerged

Now I just have to get the engine out of the car.

Comments?

[steve25]

What body type is this on?
Is this for drag usage only ?
Does the track you attend not have much shut down area?

I never much like extending the pumps pickup length , the pump being in the oil is way to keep things and baffling is the way to do that .
Many Super stock cars cut there windage losses and gain Hp by only running 4.5 Qt of oil and at that level baffling is critical as is a crank scraper with these oil volumes.

[reacp911]

It's a trans am, and Its for road racing, not drag racing. Horsepower is secondary. Last time on the track I got lots of pressure fluctuation, including tripping the 10 psi oil pressure idiot light.

Incidentally, I hooked up my modified BB Chevy pickup to my wet/dry and timed how long it took to suck up 2 gal of water. It took 17s, compared to the same test on a stock pontiac pickup, 20s. Also, the drop is only one inch

I'm also running IJ up and down crank scrapers

[steve25]

But a BBC pump has more teeth then a Pontiac pump no?

[mgarblik]

Having a great working oil pan/pick-up is a worthy goal. I was just curious why an accumulator/bearing savor is an unwanted item in your race car? Rules don't allow?, extra weight, complexity, hoses to deal with, potential leaks? Other reasons?

[reacp911]

From my testing the modified BBC pickup flows better, so I should be ok.

You've hit on one reason for not wanting an acculator: complexity. The main reason however, is that I want the car to look as stock as possible for show and insurance reasons. Here are 3 pics: one of the bbc pickup. Don't understand why the pics are rotated

[graygator]

Link to the thread where I modified my oil pan:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=867623
I attempted to tilt test the final product using water and seeing how it kept the liquid near the pickup. It will slow down the slosh, but unless there is a lot of oil hitting the top of the cover plate and flowing back into the center I have my doubts it will be successful during a long sweeping turn. It is very difficult to get the baffles and trap doors to perfectly seal. While I don't doubt it's an improvement over the stock pan, if I was a road racer, I'd be looking hard at an Accusump as well.
My advice is to do both.

[reacp911]

I've done a lot of research on this topic. My proposed design is similar to what's available for more modern engines and track oriented cars. One of the problems with pontiacs is there is not as much spent on development as say, Chevies.

Apparently, oil pumps put out 8gpm, which means the oil goes around the engine every 15 seconds. Therefore, the goal of a pan should be to direct the oil back to the pickup point as fast as possible, and not have it fill up the baffled areas first, as does the canton pan.

Oil control on a road racing track is a big problem for many cars, but many cars seem to have solved the problem, eg late model corvettes and porsches. For example, my boxster has around 6 quarts oil capacity, and has no problems whatsoever on the track.

[Sirrotica]

Your stock look will also be gone with rods hanging through the block, and oil pan, been there done that.

Functionality should trump originality, because the factory designs never were intended to be able to handle the oil slosh, and G forces generated by road racing, or oval tracks. Herb Adams, (the father of the T/A) knew full well that the stock designed oiling system would not control oil well enough to keep the Stratosteak engines together under these circumstances, and offered his own design wet sump system as an aftermarket option, after he left Pontiac, see below.



Notice how much smaller the sump is to help with oil control, IMO the best way to get a wet sump to work well on a Stratostreak engine is decreasing the floor area. This also required a specially designed pump, and pickup. This was Herb's way to avoid a wet sump system, while still getting the best oil control for this engine under hard cornering. The Adams contigent ran oval tracks, as well as road courses with Stratostreak engines. These guys day jobs were in the same areas as their hobby was, probably some of the best people on the planet to know the shortcomings of oil control of the Pontiac V8.

The other engineers at Pontiac that designed the SD 455, made a provision for a hidden rear dry sump pumps for the race dedicated design, detuned for use as a daily driver.

Chevy S/B, or B/B, does not have the same problem partially because their oil pans are deep and narrow. Pontiac on the other hand has a sump that is mostly square, and as wide as it is long giving fluid a path that can climb the walls of the pan under high G forces. If the Pontiac sump was narrower, and deeper the fluid would be better contained from moving away from the pickup tube under acceleration, braking, and cornering. Just my observations from decades of racing Pontiacs on courses, other than 1/4 mile in a straight line.

The accusump will install in most applications with one line, and a electrically acctuated fluid solenoid valve, not all that complicated, and with some work could be mostly hidden from view.

A wet sump system will never be as efficient at oil control as a dry sump. A wet sump can be crutched with an accusump though, and it will be much better than just a wet sump system by itself. It's your car, and your decision, good luck with your choices.

One other thing I have read about was that one oil pan designer liked to take his latest creations and fill them with dyed water, set them in the rear of a pickup truck, and have someone else drive the truck, while he sat in the rear of the truck watching how the fluid behaved under hard braking by the driver. The pan could be rotated to observe each direction for oil control just by watching the fluid in the open pickup when the brakes were hammered. Just some food for thought, and it will test the pan, and fluid dynamics for almost a no money investment.............

[Tom Vaught]

I have a couple of those Herb Adams "Road Race" pans.

The pans were very high quality as was the engine pump I have been told.

The pan was also designed for for the cross-over header exhaust system.

I worked on Herb's car (with a couple of Ford guys doing work for 2nd owned of the car.
Tom V.


old scca trans am
PY Online Forums
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com › showthread
Feb 27, 2021 — Congrats of getting the car. A friend of mine has the Herb Adams Appliance Wheel Silver Bird race car. Herb was a good racer. Tom V. Like Button Notice ...
"Herb Adams Mod" on early 2nd Gen Firebirds
Nov 16, 2020
1973 Grand Am Spoiled - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together
Feb 6, 2022
70-73 Drag Coefficient.... - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together
May 7, 2022
Ultimate MPG 2nd gen Firebird - PY Online Forums
Feb 7, 2022

[reacp911]

Thanks for these very useful comments. Why is there no like button on this site?

I remember the herb adams pan.

As far as depth, I can only go 1" deeper without a loss of ground clearance, which I don't have much of anyway.

I wonder what the sump drawdown is after the motor is started? one quart? two?

[Skip Fix]

What issues have you had with the Canton? I have never had mine skip a beat on oil pressure. I did have issues with the Milodon road race pan, also even the one simple trap door on the old HO modified stock pan.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ilodon+oil+pan

I think the oil pan tray needs to do 2 things -be able to drain oil back in the sump as well as not allow oil to climb up over the baffle setup-like the Milodon did and the HO pan did braking on had "box stops" autocrossing.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by reacp911

From my testing the modified BBC pickup flows better, so I should be ok.

You've hit on one reason for not wanting an acculator: complexity. The main reason however, is that I want the car to look as stock as possible for show and insurance reasons. Here are 3 pics: one of the bbc pickup. Don't understand why the pics are rotated

Attachment 625953

Attachment 625954

Attachment 625955

I understand your desire for a stock looking package and simplicity. However, given the limitations of the Pontiac oiling circuit, the width of the pan and the pump output, I hope your pan modifications alone will be enough to crutch a pretty marginal system. Pontiac engineering was concerned enough to completely change the block pattern for the SD-455 to a radical departure of the stock wet sump system. There was major expense there in new patterns and modifications to the cores and core boxes to produce that block. Although an accumulator is a "band aid" or a "crutch", they save engines, absolutely. To partially achieve your goal, I have seen 3 quart accumulators mounted inside the car, behind the glove box, up high. Only a single hose would be seen popping through the firewall on the right side. You can purchase black braided steel hose from a number of vendors. Just a thought. Good luck and please provide pics of final pan design. There are several road race Pontiacs in the build process now.

[reacp911]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

What issues have you had with the Canton?

Loss of oil on long rights.

Just looking at the canton, I think on heavy braking the oil empties out of the baffled areas and runs up the timing cover. Then as you trail brake into the turn, the oil first has to fill up the baffled areas before it gets to the pickup

[J.C.you]

Kevko made me a nice custom dirt track pan. Mite give them a call.
Www.Kevkoracing.com

[Skip Fix]

My Canton even on hard braking to make the first turn around with lots of oil in the top end of E heads never a blip with the 455 in the 78 TA or the IA in the Camaro.

On the IA I did extend the sump 1" deeperand the GTO road race pan is 1" deeper and I added addition sump in the front that an F body has room for and it is on the newer 455 I have slated for the 81 TA.

In college one of my Biology grad student lab teachers was a car guy(saw me racing my Impala in Dallas) and he was a hard core 64 GTO guy. Teh Texas A&M SCCA club got to go around Texas World Speedway Oval and road course and just at normal speed on the high banking in the long oval straight he was loosing oil pressure with a non baffled pan! He even had an original factory Bathtub intake he put on his 64 and drove it around for a month.

[reacp911]

Here's a pic of part of my inspiration. The baffle is well fitted to the walls, allowing venting, and the trap door baffles are in a diamond shape at 45 degrees, so that they function in two directions

[VCho455]

Somewhere I've seen a car with two of the small Accusumps mounted on the frame rails, one on each side with the lines teeing together and then going to the block. It would be pretty close to invisible.

You might consider going that route as well as the oil pan modifications. Cheap compared to what a new engine costs.

Just my opinion which along with a tenner will get you a steaming hot cup of Joe most anywhere.

[reacp911]

Originally Posted by VCho455

Somewhere I've seen a car with two of the small Accusumps mounted on the frame rails, one on each side with the lines teeing together and then going to the block. It would be pretty close to invisible.

You might consider going that route as well as the oil pan modifications. Cheap compared to what a new engine costs.

Just my opinion which along with a tenner will get you a steaming hot cup of Joe most anywhere.

I think the accusump is an easy retrofit. I'm going to do the pan, and see what happens. I'll add the accusump if necessary.

Now I just have to get the engine out. It's now winter here, and my garage is cram packed no room to work

[Skip Fix]

When you do the pan be sure with your tray you can get it over the pickup as you install it I know some of mine has taken some giggling to get tray over pickup and them not mess up the gasket!