[68ragtop]

I know we mention this in the various W72 threads & yes we all know what a mess the book keeping was for 1978. But, I was thinking last night about how the 2nd generation cars are seeming to get more attention each year & more enthusiasts will have the same questions as time goes on. Seeing there is access to all of the 1978 build sheets through PHS, We really do have the exact production figures for these cars.

Jim @ PHS has the key, but is there a feasible way to process 90,000 vehicles? Probably not at all..... I would assume his process is on a type of microfiche & no question that's not a searchable format. Its probably difficult enough for Jim to look up Vin numbers, let alone the complete subset of numbers at the next level of each Vin. Yes, a crazy thing to consider I know, especially without some sort of computerized scanning aid.

But, at least now I have a glimmer of hope that it could maybe, someday be sorted out. Who knows, with technology advancements it might get to the point where this info can be processed. There's at least a chance, right?

[3tas4me]

I would think that Pontiac had records of how many W-72 engines were produced. It would be a matter of just sifting through the data.

[dreamn69]

It's hard to believe it hasn't been automated yet with all the advances in digitizing information.

[Judge273]

Why would a small mom and pop business like PHS want to modernize?

I'm sure the 80-90s TA will mean more new business...

[autobahn]

You guys make it sound so easy wave a magic wand over the data and walla its digitized,beside if Jim was to digitized, someone would post it online and Jim is out of business

[68ragtop]

Originally Posted by autobahn

You guys make it sound so easy wave a magic wand over the data and walla its digitized,beside if Jim was to digitized, someone would post it online and Jim is out of business

I don't believe anyone is implying anything like that. We are all grateful for what Jim does & I personally have purchased 6 or 7 packets from him of the last 15+ years. I believe that his business is the only one with access to these records. If so, he is not going to do something to destroy his own business, but there sure would be no harm in Jim having the ability to use modern technology to breakdown numbers. I think it would have the opposite effect for PHS. No question if his data was digitized & made public that would be damaging But I am not sure how that would ever happen.

My whole point to this thread is the realization that the production numbers are not lost, just spread out like grains of sand on a small beach. That makes me hopeful that someday it can be sorted out. Not to be sorted out by the general public

[68ragtop]

There are some programs out there like adobe acrobat Pro that has the ability to scan & convert documents to standard text. Its been around for years. But, its pretty basic. Put a printed page in a scanner & its creates a editable document that can be searched.

Again, for one company to print 90,000 pages & scanning them into a document, then figuring out a way to match up options on each page, is a crazy if not ridiculous idea. But at least Jim has the data!
Who knows what the future will hold. I can still hope

[Alvin]

[Rocky Rotella]

I asked Mattison about this a couple of times and he said that it isn't as easy as it sounds. The invoices are not separated by vehicle or VIN, but in a random sequence that might be arranged by order number, if I recall that correctly. So for 1978, for instance, it's close to 750,000 invoices (or however many total cars Pontiac produced in a given model year.) Yes, it would be nice if it were automated, but I can only imagine the expense and would that outweigh the profit generated by the number of requests?

Regardless, the exact number of W72-equipped Formulas and Trans Ams, broken down by transmission will be available in The Definitive Firebird Guide 1970-1981 due out later this year. I found a very critical piece of information that tells us exactly that!

[Judge273]

Cool Rocky! Can't wait for the release!!

[Rocky Rotella]

Me too, Mike! It was supposed to be 67-81, but there was just so much info that it had to be broken up into two. I'm ready for it to be over, but I learned so much that I get to share, and that makes it worthwhile.

[Skip Fix]

Cool sounds good to have more data to look at.

Funny thing when I went to the auto parts store to get a transmission shifter cable they had no listing for a 400 with an auto in 78! Had to use one for a 77

[68ragtop]

Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella

Regardless, the exact number of W72-equipped Formulas and Trans Ams, broken down by transmission will be available in The Definitive Firebird Guide 1970-1981 due out later this year. I found a very critical piece of information that tells us exactly that!

I am cautiously optimistic about that news. Do you know how those numbers are being generated? Did someone find some hidden records or will this be some of the same regurgitated info? Any idea if it breaks down transmissions & appearance packages?

What makes me crazy is how some sites will show the W72as the norm engine & the L78 was the unknown. Like so many of use who have been following this cars for the last decade of so, there is no doubt the amount of W72's is so much lower than the L78 or the L80. This seems especially true with the W72 Y88 cars.

Only 1267 Y88 4 speed W72s is documented, yet these cars come up for sale quite often.

Sites like the ones listed below show 6529 W72 auto Y88's. Absurd to say the least. L78's Most of them that come to market have that power plant.

http://www.2gta.com/1978ta.html

http://www.78ta.com/production.php

[68ragtop]

As most of you guys know, I have been obsessed with this lack of info for a really long time. The reason for me is deep rooted from 1986 in High School. A friend of mine had a Y88 W72 automatic car. Only one like it in town at the time. The car had a huge impact on me & that very car was the reason I have my 2nd gen cars today. It was a car that was way out of my league at the time, Looked awesome, handled awesome & was very quick.

Then in the mid 90's I was in a good financial position to buy one so I started looking. I Religiously picked up Autotrader magazine every weekend. It was at this time that I learned not all of these S/E's were optioned the same like I thought. (lack of internet info) I looked for over a year & while the Y88's were available from time to time, the one I found were always L78 power plants & maybe 1 or 2 four speeds. I settled for one of those L78 cars & still own it today. After purchasing that car & realizing how anemic its performance was, I became obsessed with the W72 package & finding a Y88 with that engine. Then as luck would have it one landed in my local news paper. Just listed as Gold 78 trans am. After looking at the car & finding it to be a Y88, with a numbers matching X7. I bought it that day. I also at that time realized this car I bought was not only optioned like my buddies old car, it was the actual car he owned back in 1986! Seemed like an impossible coincidence at the time, but I was (and still am) so happy to have it. So, does that make it rare? Not at all, but It made me realize these drivetrain combo's are not at all easy to find.

I still to this day watch the Y88's that come up for sale & yes there have been some W72 automatics that have come up over the years, but it has not been many, just a handful.

I know I have shared this story with your guys numerous times & I apologize for telling a story you guys already know. I should have just found the threads & posted the links to them

[Keith Seymore]

Some previous discussion:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...light=simmonds

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...light=simmonds

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...light=simmonds

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...light=simmonds

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...light=simmonds

[Rocky Rotella]

Originally Posted by 68ragtop

I am cautiously optimistic about that news. Do you know how those numbers are being generated? Did someone find some hidden records or will this be some of the same regurgitated info? Any idea if it breaks down transmissions & appearance packages?

I total understand the optimism, but rest assured that some hidden records generated by Pontiac surfaced somewhat recently.

[68ragtop]

Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella

I total understand the optimism, but rest assured that some hidden records generated by Pontiac surfaced somewhat recently.

So no hints coming out before September? You know Hollywood lets out sneak peak movie trailers to create more interest in ticket sales

Can you tell us if the breakdown will be within the appearance packages & models, or just 1978 birds as a whole?

Either way, I look forward to your book

[starlightblack]

GM of CANADA Documentation calls out the number of W72s imported right on the doc (2495 in '77), which I thought was cool. Here's the one for my 1977 4-speed Brentwood Brown car:

[Alvin]

Subscribing

[johnta1]

I'm waiting on the book, too, Rocky!



Will this shake-up John Witzke's info?