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Old 03-14-2021, 02:29 PM
ponchorob ponchorob is offline
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Default Old faithful at butler

...does butler have the same old faithful cam like dave at SD performance seems the duration is different 236/ 245.....from SD and at butler 236/242 with different lope seaparations from 110 to 114....since a little spec difference could maybe make a big difference ....but maybe not....any thoughts....

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Old 03-14-2021, 03:23 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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If you are speaking of this cam it uses Comp XE lobes, numbers 3315 & 3316:

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2503...tegory:1272239

His similar grind with 242 degrees exhaust duration uses XE lobe 3317

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2503...tegory:1272239

The original Old Faithfull cam uses Comp High Lift Magnum lobes 3122B and 3120B, note the "B" suffix code can but not always alter the seat duration and or lobe lift than what's stated in the catalog.
The newer version of the Old Faithful cam is slightly different, I believe it uses a combination of XE and Magnum High Lift lobes. I suspect they are lobes 3196B and 3123B


.

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Last edited by Steve C.; 03-14-2021 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 03-14-2021, 05:52 PM
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Stan Weiss Stan Weiss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
If you are speaking of this cam it uses Comp XE lobes, numbers 3315 & 3316:

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2503...tegory:1272239

His similar grind with 242 degrees exhaust duration uses XE lobe 3317

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2503...tegory:1272239

The original Old Faithfull cam uses Comp High Lift Magnum lobes 3122B and 3120B, note the "B" suffix code can but not always alter the seat duration and or lobe lift than what's stated in the catalog.
The newer version of the Old Faithful cam is slightly different, I believe it uses a combination of XE and Magnum High Lift lobes. I suspect they are lobes 3196B and 3123B


.
Steve,
The 3315 only has 230 @ 0.050"

I believe he is talking about something like this.
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234797

Syan

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Old 03-14-2021, 07:25 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Thanks Stan, brain fade I had the Stump Puller in mind.

The second Butler cam I linked with 236/242 - 112 LSA is closer. Again both XE lobes.

Lobe 3316
288
236
157
.3470

Lobe 3317
294
242
164
.3600

112LSA

The Old Faithfull over the years has had various variants. From a early cam card:

Comp High Lift Magnum lobes

Lobe 3122B
289
236
160
.3800

Lobe 3120B
306
236
245
.3830

112 LSA


.

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Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

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5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
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Last edited by Steve C.; 03-14-2021 at 07:32 PM.
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Old 03-14-2021, 07:57 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Or if desired a hydraulic roller cam with a bit more 0.200 duration, more exhaust duration and additional valve lift.

Comp Lobe 3196
288
236
162
.3900

Comp lobe 3123
300
246
169
.4000

And as we know any of the lobes mentioned can be custom ground with whatever lobe separation desired, be it 110, 112 or 114

https://www.compcams.com/lobe-catalog

.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
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Old 03-15-2021, 03:58 AM
ponchorob ponchorob is offline
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yes the 236/ 242 WITH 112 BUT WILL TRY WITH 114 WITH MY 461.....

i also build another engine its a 428 ...like to use the same cam but maybe the lobe separation should stay between 110 an 112 in the 428

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Old 03-17-2021, 03:15 PM
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The cam I use in my 428 is 113 but my cam is a lot larger.
I think you'll be fine with the larger LSA.

GT

  #8  
Old 03-17-2021, 08:03 PM
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Vengeance Race Engines Vengeance Race Engines is offline
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The lobe separation is just a byproduct of cam timing. If the cam timing is correct for the application, the separation follows suit. Centerline is just "when" you want the party to start....
I will be using a shelf Lunati Voodoo hyd. roller stick in a current build for a local 65 GTO convertible street car. Came in as a broken 428 with iron d-ports and leaving as a 461 with Edelbrock d-ports. Using most of what he already had for budget concerns. 231/239 110 .535/.550..... .575/..590 w/1.6's that he has. Should be a fun street car.

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Old 03-18-2021, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vengeance Race Engines View Post
The lobe separation is just a byproduct of cam timing. If the cam timing is correct for the application, the separation follows suit.
Lobe separation is a "byproduct" of cam grinding. Cam timing cannot change lobe separation. Some new engines have cam phasers that can change lobe separation and/or timing. Gotta have multiple cams for lobe separation though.

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Old 03-18-2021, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSchmitz View Post
Lobe separation is a "byproduct" of cam grinding. Cam timing cannot change lobe separation. Some new engines have cam phasers that can change lobe separation and/or timing. Gotta have multiple cams for lobe separation though.
"Cam timing cannot change lobe separation."

It DOES if you alter the events BEFORE it is ground, which is what i was saying. So yes, the separation IS a byproduct of correct valve timing events.

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Old 03-18-2021, 11:07 AM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Summary

The most important cam design parameters are the four timing events or equivalently the advance, intake and exhaust duration and lobe separation angle.

Once the four timing parameters are established, the cam should be designed for maximum lift

A quick opening and closing cam will provide better low end performance than one that is slower opening.

The trick is to know what values to use for the timing parameters. Although we know general ranges of values and trends, the timing numbers must be established from performance experience.

A discussion of camshaft terminology, camshaft performance, lobe design methods and valve train dynamics:

http://tildentechnologies.com/Cams/CamPerformance.html

.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #12  
Old 03-18-2021, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vengeance Race Engines View Post
"Cam timing cannot change lobe separation."

It DOES if you alter the events BEFORE it is ground, which is what i was saying. So yes, the separation IS a byproduct of correct valve timing events.
Cam timing usually refers to timing the cam to the crank. Which CANNOT change overlap. That's what I thought you were saying. You changed it to "byproduct of correct valve timing events". Which is totally different. Potato pototo...I digress.

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Old 03-18-2021, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
Summary

The most important cam design parameters are the four timing events or equivalently the advance, intake and exhaust duration and lobe separation angle.

Once the four timing parameters are established, the cam should be designed for maximum lift

A quick opening and closing cam will provide better low end performance than one that is slower opening.

The trick is to know what values to use for the timing parameters. Although we know general ranges of values and trends, the timing numbers must be established from performance experience.

A discussion of camshaft terminology, camshaft performance, lobe design methods and valve train dynamics:

http://tildentechnologies.com/Cams/CamPerformance.html

.
I guess I'll just keep on designing cams "wrong" and totally ignoring what the LSA is, until it is time to order the camshaft :-)

The ONLY thing important about LSA, to me, is that it provides an easily understandable method for the cam grinder to position the lobes where I want them.

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Old 03-18-2021, 01:11 PM
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I should of added material not based on personal experience and is offered for general interest only


"LSA is frequently the least understood and most perplexing factor of camshaft timing. Any change from increasing valve overlap, advancing the intake lobe, retarding the exhaust lobe or any combination of these can change the lobe centerline. Each change made offers contrasting aspects that should be considered both independently and as one. A wealth of complex information exists on Lobe Separation and Lobe Centerline which is much more than can be covered in this article."

Camshaft Class is Back in Session

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...-back-session/


.

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Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
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Old 03-18-2021, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSchmitz View Post
Cam timing usually refers to timing the cam to the crank. Which CANNOT change overlap. That's what I thought you were saying. You changed it to "byproduct of correct valve timing events". Which is totally different. Potato pototo...I digress.
For that, i apologize. I often forget that i am the only one who usually understands what the voice in my head is telling me to say... and too often i don't translate well enough through words 🙄.
Yes, the actual events is what i was after.

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Old 03-19-2021, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vengeance Race Engines View Post
For that, i apologize. I often forget that i am the only one who usually understands what the voice in my head is telling me to say... and too often i don't translate well enough through words 🙄.
Yes, the actual events is what i was after.
It's all good. I was probably "splitting hairs" anyway. It was syntax.

  #17  
Old 03-20-2021, 11:51 AM
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[mention]ponchorob [/mention] I just purchased the 236/242 on a 112 LSA from Butler for my 428/455 Iím putting together. Hopefully I can give some first hand feedback on it this spring/summer. The lobes are 3316/3317, though the cam card shows slightly altered advertised of 287 293 vs. comps lobe catalog of 288 294. It is effectively a XR288HR ground on a 112lsa. The .200 intake and exhaust duration is 5 degrees smaller on the Butler grind than Daveís OF 2.0 cam if Iím not mistaken, with a fair amount less lobe lift.



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Old 04-23-2021, 03:28 PM
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I think I have the 1st version of "old faithful". back in 2008, Using it with Dave's 290cfm CNC ported Kaufman's.
Didn't know it's had other variations through the years.

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Old 04-23-2021, 07:32 PM
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I still like the high lift magnum lobes the best.Tom

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Old 04-23-2021, 07:43 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Googled up.... "Once the four timing parameters are established, the cam should be designed for maximum lift."

https://www.tildentechnologies.com/C...rformance.html


"If you want to build a street motor with the most power without a sacrifice of idle and low speed qualities, then lift is the most important factor to maximize, not duration. The best suited cams are those that seek to maximize lift while only adding a minimal amount of duration."
David Vizard


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Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
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