FAQ |
Members List |
Social Groups |
Calendar |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Old faithful at butler
...does butler have the same old faithful cam like dave at SD performance seems the duration is different 236/ 245.....from SD and at butler 236/242 with different lope seaparations from 110 to 114....since a little spec difference could maybe make a big difference ....but maybe not....any thoughts....
|
#2
|
|||
|
|||
If you are speaking of this cam it uses Comp XE lobes, numbers 3315 & 3316:
https://butlerperformance.com/i-2503...tegory:1272239 His similar grind with 242 degrees exhaust duration uses XE lobe 3317 https://butlerperformance.com/i-2503...tegory:1272239 The original Old Faithfull cam uses Comp High Lift Magnum lobes 3122B and 3120B, note the "B" suffix code can but not always alter the seat duration and or lobe lift than what's stated in the catalog. The newer version of the Old Faithful cam is slightly different, I believe it uses a combination of XE and Magnum High Lift lobes. I suspect they are lobes 3196B and 3123B .
__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE Last edited by Steve C.; 03-14-2021 at 03:35 PM. |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
The 3315 only has 230 @ 0.050" I believe he is talking about something like this. https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234797 Syan
__________________
Stan Weiss/World Wide Enterprises Offering Performance Software Since 1987 http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/carfor.htm David Vizard & Stan Weiss' IOP / Flow / Induction Optimization - Cam Selection Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV Download FREE 14 Trial IOP / Flow Software http://www.magneticlynx.com/DV/Flow_..._Day_Trial.php Pontiac Pump Gas List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_gas.htm Using PMD Block and Heads List http://www.magneticlynx.com/carfor/pont_pmd.htm |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Thanks Stan, brain fade I had the Stump Puller in mind.
The second Butler cam I linked with 236/242 - 112 LSA is closer. Again both XE lobes. Lobe 3316 288 236 157 .3470 Lobe 3317 294 242 164 .3600 112LSA The Old Faithfull over the years has had various variants. From a early cam card: Comp High Lift Magnum lobes Lobe 3122B 289 236 160 .3800 Lobe 3120B 306 236 245 .3830 112 LSA .
__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE Last edited by Steve C.; 03-14-2021 at 07:32 PM. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Or if desired a hydraulic roller cam with a bit more 0.200 duration, more exhaust duration and additional valve lift.
Comp Lobe 3196 288 236 162 .3900 Comp lobe 3123 300 246 169 .4000 And as we know any of the lobes mentioned can be custom ground with whatever lobe separation desired, be it 110, 112 or 114 https://www.compcams.com/lobe-catalog .
__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
yes the 236/ 242 WITH 112 BUT WILL TRY WITH 114 WITH MY 461.....
i also build another engine its a 428 ...like to use the same cam but maybe the lobe separation should stay between 110 an 112 in the 428 |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
The cam I use in my 428 is 113 but my cam is a lot larger.
I think you'll be fine with the larger LSA. GT |
#8
|
||||
|
||||
The lobe separation is just a byproduct of cam timing. If the cam timing is correct for the application, the separation follows suit. Centerline is just "when" you want the party to start....
I will be using a shelf Lunati Voodoo hyd. roller stick in a current build for a local 65 GTO convertible street car. Came in as a broken 428 with iron d-ports and leaving as a 461 with Edelbrock d-ports. Using most of what he already had for budget concerns. 231/239 110 .535/.550..... .575/..590 w/1.6's that he has. Should be a fun street car. |
#9
|
||||
|
||||
Lobe separation is a "byproduct" of cam grinding. Cam timing cannot change lobe separation. Some new engines have cam phasers that can change lobe separation and/or timing. Gotta have multiple cams for lobe separation though.
|
#10
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
It DOES if you alter the events BEFORE it is ground, which is what i was saying. So yes, the separation IS a byproduct of correct valve timing events. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Summary
The most important cam design parameters are the four timing events or equivalently the advance, intake and exhaust duration and lobe separation angle. Once the four timing parameters are established, the cam should be designed for maximum lift A quick opening and closing cam will provide better low end performance than one that is slower opening. The trick is to know what values to use for the timing parameters. Although we know general ranges of values and trends, the timing numbers must be established from performance experience. A discussion of camshaft terminology, camshaft performance, lobe design methods and valve train dynamics: http://tildentechnologies.com/Cams/CamPerformance.html .
__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
Cam timing usually refers to timing the cam to the crank. Which CANNOT change overlap. That's what I thought you were saying. You changed it to "byproduct of correct valve timing events". Which is totally different. Potato pototo...I digress.
|
#13
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
The ONLY thing important about LSA, to me, is that it provides an easily understandable method for the cam grinder to position the lobes where I want them.
__________________
'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'. '67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
I should of added material not based on personal experience and is offered for general interest only
"LSA is frequently the least understood and most perplexing factor of camshaft timing. Any change from increasing valve overlap, advancing the intake lobe, retarding the exhaust lobe or any combination of these can change the lobe centerline. Each change made offers contrasting aspects that should be considered both independently and as one. A wealth of complex information exists on Lobe Separation and Lobe Centerline which is much more than can be covered in this article." Camshaft Class is Back in Session https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...-back-session/ .
__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Yes, the actual events is what i was after. |
#16
|
||||
|
||||
It's all good. I was probably "splitting hairs" anyway. It was syntax.
|
#17
|
||||
|
||||
[mention]ponchorob [/mention] I just purchased the 236/242 on a 112 LSA from Butler for my 428/455 I’m putting together. Hopefully I can give some first hand feedback on it this spring/summer. The lobes are 3316/3317, though the cam card shows slightly altered advertised of 287 293 vs. comps lobe catalog of 288 294. It is effectively a XR288HR ground on a 112lsa. The .200 intake and exhaust duration is 5 degrees smaller on the Butler grind than Dave’s OF 2.0 cam if I’m not mistaken, with a fair amount less lobe lift.
|
#18
|
||||
|
||||
I think I have the 1st version of "old faithful". back in 2008, Using it with Dave's 290cfm CNC ported Kaufman's.
Didn't know it's had other variations through the years.
__________________
Home of WFO Hyperformance Shaker induction. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
I still like the high lift magnum lobes the best.Tom
|
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Googled up.... "Once the four timing parameters are established, the cam should be designed for maximum lift."
https://www.tildentechnologies.com/C...rformance.html "If you want to build a street motor with the most power without a sacrifice of idle and low speed qualities, then lift is the most important factor to maximize, not duration. The best suited cams are those that seek to maximize lift while only adding a minimal amount of duration." David Vizard .
__________________
'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 ) Old information here: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/ Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine) 5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE |
Reply |
|
|