[68gtoMN]

Originally Posted by Stuart

One thing about scanning the documents is there are plenty of hand written (hand scribbled) notes and references to memos on them that most likely would still have to be entered by hand.

The thing I've always wondered is if any of those memos still exist. I know the PHS for my car has a couple hand written references along the line of "see memo xxxx." They would probably better explain how and why a particular car was built the way it was.

True enough. As Mike said, most of this work can be automated. some will require additional review/correction/input. Remember, this is a finite universe of information. Once complete, it's complete for ever.

[gtoric]

Kurt, all of the PHS records are on microfilm. The film has been wound into special cassettes that can only be used by the reader/printer that Jim has. You can see the machine in Mike's picture of the former PHS offices. I think that these reader/printers are over 40 years old, and repair parts are getting scarce.

[MikeNoun]

What we did was have a drop down box of frequently used phrases or terms used on a document. For instance, if we ran across a lot of invoices that had "per Jim Wangers" or some other relatively common phrase, you would enter that term once, and whenever you ran across another invoice like that, you would simply hit the drop down box and check off the "per Jim Wangers" notation.

Now later on, you could search all invoices that had "per Jim Wangers" on them, and you'd get them all, or just search "Wangers", etc.

Whoever did the verification, they would enter in ANY notations that were on the invoice. But the frequently used ones would just be in a dropdown box to make things quicker.

But imagine doing a quick search for something like "DeLorean" or "Engineering". Now that would be interesting to see!

Most invoices would be scanned through without a hiccup. It would take some design, but once it's done, you should probably have 95% throughput that would go directly to the database and be stored, and then you'd have sorts available by Color Code, Option, etc., by year, by model, whatever you like.

As for the microfiche, as I mentioned earlier, this would be a big part of the overall project. You would just start with invoice #1, print it say 500 or so (just like as if you were sending this to a PHS customer), and you could do 500-1000 per day. Then feed those paper 500-1000 paper copies into the scanner to be stored in the database. Probably 50 or so would need to be addressed, manually keyed, etc.

It would be a big project for sure, but as mentioned above, it's a finite number of invoices, it's not a moving target. Once each model year is done, it's done forever.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Stuart

The thing I've always wondered is if any of those memos still exist. I know the PHS for my car has a couple hand written references along the line of "see memo xxxx." They would probably better explain how and why a particular car was built the way it was.

I asked Fred Simmonds this question recently; he said he did not think the memos still existed.

Per Fred:

"Keith, the "memos" were written by Bill Cumberworth in Car Distribution (G.W. Cumberworth). Bill retired 10 - 12 years ago. Some time ago, I asked him about the memos and he said that there were so many that he can't remember them! There were memos written for any non-stock assembly procedure, from taxis to race cars, and everything in between. I never asked him if there was a special form - my hunch is that it was just what it says: a "memo", which Pontiac had letterhead paper for.

I have never seen one - and wouldn't expect that any would have survived. I thoroughly combed the Car Distribution files in 1987, and never saw one, even though there was plenty of good info in the files.

Fred"

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

There were memos written for any non-stock assembly procedure, from taxis to race cars, and everything in between. I never asked him if there was a special form - my hunch is that it was just what it says: a "memo", which Pontiac had letterhead paper for.

I have never seen one - and wouldn't expect that any would have survived. I thoroughly combed the Car Distribution files in 1987, and never saw one, even though there was plenty of good info in the files.

Fred"

That's pretty much what I expected, they were an ephemeral sort of thing...as soon as a particular car was built they probably got tossed. They can leave some tantalizing clues behind, though.

edit: If they were all written by Mr. Cumberworth, he must have been a busy guy over the years.

[68gtoMN]

Originally Posted by gtoric

Kurt, all of the PHS records are on microfilm. The film has been wound into special cassettes that can only be used by the reader/printer that Jim has. You can see the machine in Mike's picture of the former PHS offices. I think that these reader/printers are over 40 years old, and repair parts are getting scarce.

Eric,

This is what I thought and I did see the reader in the picture. The fact that these machines were used originally is not an issue. There are specific Microfiche scanners built for exactly this conversion. As an example, I looked up some sample costs were you to have a service produce the conversions. If Std 16MM film, and with the number of rolls to be scanned (greater than 50, I surmise) the price for each would be $0.10 per image or less. Again, depends on volume. The undertaking would be larger than I first imagined; still, this would set up the company for increased efficiency and new product/revenue streams going forward. It is tough to make financial assumptions here, but I believe I could build a business case for this in a heartbeat.

[68gtoMN]

An example of what "good" looks like. This is what PHS COULD do if the microfiche were converted to a database. I see all types of positive benefits for both the consumer and the provider of information. **Sorry, I am at work and can't upload / embed a clearer picture - I will do that later from home.**

[Stuart]

^ Man, that was one rare Ford LTD.

[68gtoMN]

Originally Posted by Stuart

^ Man, that was one rare Ford LTD.

Yes it is. On ebay now...http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-...ht_1523wt_1167

Also, this is an example of the ELITE report from Marti. They have 4 levels and the information increases or each. They also offer research based on a checklist you provide (see their website) for $80/hour. Does anyone else see the possibilities here? Other examples

http://www.martiauto.com/itemselection.cfm?item=stat-1

[gtoric]

Originally Posted by 68gtoMN

Eric,

This is what I thought and I did see the reader in the picture. The fact that these machines were used originally is not an issue. There are specific Microfiche scanners built for exactly this conversion. As an example, I looked up some sample costs were you to have a service produce the conversions. If Std 16MM film, and with the number of rolls to be scanned (greater than 50, I surmise) the price for each would be $0.10 per image or less. Again, depends on volume. The undertaking would be larger than I first imagined; still, this would set up the company for increased efficiency and new product/revenue streams going forward. It is tough to make financial assumptions here, but I believe I could build a business case for this in a heartbeat.

Let's look at the numbers.
Pontiac built nearly seven million vehicles between 1961 and 1970. At 10 cents per image, that works out to nearly $700,000. If you expand the year count to 1980, you will more than double that figure.

If you could image each Billing History Card or Dealer Invoice at the rate of one per second, it would take one person, working 40 true hours per week, almost a year to complete the image recording. If the actual rate increased to 2 or 3 seconds per image, that would turn out to be a substantially lengthy effort.

Now that you've got that first decade digitized, you can start figuring the cost/time requirement for the OCR phase.

This has always figured as a massive project in time and money. Until the reader/printer that PHS is using at the moment has a fatal breakdown and no repair parts can be located, thus rendering the existing microfilm cassettes useless in their current form, there is no reason for PHS to venture away from the satus quo. However, if or when that unfortunate turn of events comes about, PHS will have a decision to make, but, it is their decision to make.

[68gtoMN]

Eric,

This is a thread about PHS. I am offering tidbits of information and expanding the possibilties. I do not see an attack on PHS here. Using the numbers I provided is just a starting point. There are many ways to "skin a cat", per se.

What if, for example, one was to purchase a used scanning machines and employ them to scan the most popular years requested first. The OCR is a function of the scan and would not need to be completed separately.

Yes, I understand that this is a substantial undertaking, but it will never be completed until it is started. Again, this conversion opens the doors to new revenue streams, new product offerings and a potential boon for the hobby. It could be done piecemeal. I think discussions such as this are healthy.

We are a land of equal opportunity, not equal outcomes...

[JLHarper]

I think any investment in anything "old car" related is a big risk.

First off. you are in a declining market thats probably never going to return (even close) to previous highs seen in the hobby.

Second, in order to sell a higher priced package some sort of "guarantee" would have to be attached/conveyed, so then you pile on the liability.

Not worth it, imo. JM knows his business.....well.

[gtoric]

Yep, I agree with you Kurt, this post has offered some good discussions on how the PHS records could be utilized in the digital environment. Just think what a Pontiac-based, not-for-profit organization could do with that theoretical $700,000 (or even $70,000) and the PHS microfilm library. We've explored just some of the possibilities thus far.

I also agree that this is a intriguing exercise in "what-if" business building. I was just trying to further illustrate the scope of the proposition being discussed here.

As large as this theoretical endeavor might appear to be, it does not compare to many small businesses that have been started on a shoestring and successfully built up over the span of decades into important enterprises.

I am not attempting to discourage this post in any way. I'm just throwing some cold hard figures against the wall to see how far they splat.

[JLHarper]

How is this not for profit being funded?

[Stuart]

As far as I know PHS is a for-profit operation.

[JLHarper]

Originally Posted by Stuart

As far as I know PHS is a for-profit operation.

Stuart, I was referring to the other comments GTORIC posted about a not for profit taking over the phs operation.

How is that NFP being funded (now without the PHS) or is this some hypothetical "what if"?

[242177P]

A database would also be great for partial VINs, or EUNs. I'd get a PHS report on a block.

A definitive book would be awesome, but it would undoubtedly become common knowledge after a short time. Still, I would pre-order one.

[gtoric]

I did not mean, nor did I mean to imply, that PHS was a not-for-profit company. I also did not suggest that any not-for-profit group take over the PHS operation. PHS is Jim's business, and he should operate it in any way he sees fit, for as long as he sees fit.

I was thinking more along the lines of a NFP organization, at some point in the future, taking on the task of digitizing the PHS microfilm records and preparing them for a research access database. This was purely a hypothetical "what if."

[richard sargent]

It would be interesting to get a real numbers on how much this would cost by cutting as many corners as possible as 68gtomn is suggesting. What if we could get 1250 pyers to invest the cost of one P.H.S. in this? That's 100k seed money right there!

Everyone agrees on the value of this compared to other makes that don't have this information. I bet you could get 100 hard core collectors to donate 500 bucks each! Hell I never seem to place an order with Performance years, Ames, In Line Tube, The Parts Place etc. for less than that!

Everytime we buy parts for our cars we are investing in them, why not invest in all Pontiac's as a whole, it would benefit every single person who has a vintage Pontiac!

People point out the aging population that collect these cars, what better way to attract ''new blood'' than have as much information about these cars as possible? The younger the person the more computer savy and info. related they are.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by GTO JOHN

Still a bargain at $65. The Chevelle guys wish they had the same info available for their cars. I'm willing to bet some guys would pay upwards of $200 to properly document their 69 Chevelle ss396.

If it was available for chevelles there would a Ton LESS LS-6 1970 Chevelles out there!!