[unruhjonny]

I looked up PHS today on the off chance they offered a different packet than they used to;

If my memory serves me, there used to be two ways to order packets;
One was the standard deal with all the paperwork mailed to you.
The second was a more expensive "rush" order where the order/build sheet was emailed to you, and the packet sent later.

If anyone here doesn't know, they were recently covered in (POCI's) Smoke Signals magazine;

Originally Posted by StevenK

In the May(?) issue of Smoke Signals, it covered PHS ... It also stated the fiche is deteriorating and may not be recoverable in the next few years.

The article said that all orders that have been made for the past couple(?) years have been manually scanned.
The article went on to encourage POCI members to order packets for their cars to ensure that the microfiche for their car would be scanned, and not lost to time.

Originally Posted by R 70 Judge

They are definitely deteriorating. We ordered the PHS for my brother's 72 TA back in the 90's and it was crisp and clear. Recently we couldn't find where we put it so I ordered it again in 2020. The new PHS scan was not great. It is kind of fuzzy and harder to read. They tried scanning it a few times for me and that was the best they could get.

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

I had ordered PHS years ago that were really hard to read and kinda dark grey in color. I’m sure they are deteriorating but some were bad even back then in the 90s

I ordered one of their packets in the late 1990's for my car, and it was akin to Christmas time when that glorious packet arrived;
It had the document specific to my car, along with copies of ordering sheets, and much more - it even included a glossy 8x10"(?) black and white press release photo of my model car.

I went to their site today HERE and although they appear to have two different types of packets you can order, you might need to take a second glance because all is not as it used to be:

All of our information packages are now sent via email only. We no longer offer a hard copy option

Now, don't get me wrong, they offer a great service to the hobby, but this is not a cheap service by any means, and at $95usd for he "regular" (email only) and $110usd for the "expedited" (again email only) service, am I the only person to think that this is a bit much?

If these are all email-only "packets" their overhead has been greatly reduced;

• no paper to buy
• no printers to purchase or maintain
• no mailer envelopes required
• no postage to be paid

Now I realize that this is how they make their money, and to some this information is quite valuable but at roughly a hundred dollars an order, surely the pricing shouldn't have any problem putting together a couple emails a day to make a comfortable living?

I would imagine that the microfiche is fairly organized by now, so looking up vehicles shouldn't be that hard.

I am sitting here wondering if the price on these email only "packets" is where it's at because people (like me) are less incline to order;
So the current price point is possibly hurting their number of orders...(?)
Maybe they are doing a juggling act of a price point vs the service so that orders still come in at a reasonable rate, and where they (Mattison's) don't need to find another job to make ends meet...
I would have thought that even mailed packets at roughly $100usd a pop should be a good money maker.

I write all this for two reasons;
1) I want word to get out that these documents are potentially dissappearing;
2) I had really hoped that I could have found a lower cost option which entails only the scanned vehicle document be emailed.

I have three vins I'd love to run, but none of these points of curiosity are nagging me enough to cough up $100usd (aprox $130 of my dollars) just for the fun of it...

[Scarebird]

I would guess it takes about a half hour to collate the data, process and send it out.

This is not including the cost to house the microfiche nor the initial buy of this data and time to sort it out.

Another thought is when Jim decides to sell - a good bottom line always helps.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

I would guess it takes about a half hour to collate the data, process and send it out.

This is not including the cost to house the microfiche nor the initial buy of this data and time to sort it out.

Another thought is when Jim decides to sell - a good bottom line always helps.

He was given the microfiche;
Decades ago.

Jim probably did the bulk of the sorting a while back too.

His son has taken over the business, iirc Jim is no longer involved.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

He was given the microfiche;
Decades ago.

Jim probably did the bulk of the sorting a while back too.

His son has taken over the business, iirc Jim is no longer involved.

GIVEN????? THAT IS ONE STORY. This is closer to the real story.

Years ago, when Pontiac announced it was closing its doors, a management decision said basically "everything goes into the dumpster".

So everything "went into the dumpster" I was told, but then Jim did a "Dumpster Dive" and took everything he could out of the dumpster and saved it.

I believe there was some legal opinions filed and the legal people said once it went into the dempster it was no longer GM property.

So Jim was able to save a bunch of Pontiac records but GM was not happy.

I assume the word went around GM, no more "dumpster diving", and the other OEMS followed suit.

A guy named Ran**zo, almost lost his job for climbing into a dumpster at MY work, BUT he was retrieving a part that should not have been thrown in the dumpster in the first place. A Security Guard saw him and tried to have him fired. Management said, "He should not have gone in the dumpster but he retrieved a critical parts that should not have been put in the dumpster in the first place." So Management saved his job.

Not sure what GM did to Jim, but either way the film and files were saved for Pontiac Enthusiasts.
If they fired him or cancelled his contract as a contract employee, he still did the Pontiac community a great service.

JMO

Tom V.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

GIVEN????? THAT IS ONE STORY. This is closer to the real story.

Years ago, when Pontiac announced it was closing its doors, a management decision said basically "everything goes into the dumpster".

So everything "went into the dumpster" I was told, but then Jim did a "Dumpster Dive" and took everything he could out of the dumpster and saved it.

I believe there was some legal opinions filed and the legal people said once it went into the dempster it was no longer GM property.

So Jim was able to save a bunch of Pontiac records but GM was not happy.

This is correct.

Originally Posted by thepontiacman

From what I understand, GM gets a portion of the money each time a phs report is produced.

I don't know about that - unless it is the typical trademark/registration fee arrangement for using the Pontiac name or logo(s).

GM has no claim to the records - as a result of the lawsuit Tom mentioned.

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

He was given the microfiche;
Decades ago.

Jim probably did the bulk of the sorting a while back too.

His son has taken over the business, iirc Jim is no longer involved.

I don't know that much sorting has been done, or can been done.

I have some pictures of the PHS offices and file cabinets and spent some time looking just now but could not come up with them quickly.

They are the old metal pull out type with rows and rows of microfiche. The also are filed by Invoice number, not by VIN, since the billing history cars were originally a financial document (not an engineering document, nor were they saved as a potential boon to future automotive historians).

Picture the basement of an old savings and loan, where the vault is crammed full of stuff and you have to turn sideways to get between the cabinets.

Something like that.

That's what makes the comprehensive list of '62/'63 Super Duty cars even more incredible. Fred Simmonds went through tens of thousands of individual records, one at a time, before/after work and during his lunch hour - for months - in order to create that list by hand.

K

Originally Posted by 68gtoMN

UPDATE: I just had a great conversation with Jim Mattison regarding one of my cars that led to a discussion about PHS. I really enjoyed the chat and Jim was very forthcoming about how PHS has evolved, the challenges faced by this business and how his passion for the hobby and personal sacrifice have kept it alive. Jim also provided additional information about how a given car's records are kept/researched and it shed light onto the subject (continued questions) of why can't certain searches be made easier - from an overall research perspective. Here's what I learned using one of my cars as an example:

I have a 68 GTO with a VIN indicating it to be the 110th V8 car produced in Pontiac for the 68 model year (august 9, 1967 build). I decided to inquire about how many cars preceding it might have been GTOs, if produced on the first day, other statistics...you know, just in case Jim had some insight. While potentially feasible to review all cars preceding this one to make such a determination (due to low production number), he would have to look up each VIN individually and, to find them, would need to look at invoice date.

If I understand it correctly, VINs are not locatged on the Microfiche in sequential order and each car would need to be identified by performing, essentially, a standard PHS review to determine this information. It is possible that the preceding 10 cars could have been GTOs or that none of the prior 50 were GTOs - you can't know until you look at each record individually. This is both time-consuming and expensive.

The machines Jim uses to review the microfiche are expensive and not manufactured any longer, as Eric states. Office space, copying, mailing, employee expense, etc all add up. Again, details of this are for Jim alone to divulge. HOWEVER, I steadfastly state that the cost for any PHS lookup, as charged by Jim, is a bargain in this world of collector cars. Jim continues because he believes in the cause. He does not need this business, but he loves the hobby and has fought GM to keep it alive for all of us. Perhaps I will investigate further the effort to create such a database for the business.

Anyone questioning the value of knowing the provenance of their car should have no reservations about utilizing PHS. I've seen Jim at GTOAA events for years and have spoken to him on several occasions.

Please do not hesitate to get your PHS paperwork. Support our hobby. Support those who make it possible.

[Keith Seymore]

Some notes from when we had this same discussion, nearly 10 years ago:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ht=pre-history

and over 10 years ago:

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ht=pre-history

The threshold that flipped the switch at that time was $65.

K

[mgarblik]

Possibly as Jim has stepped down, the current folks operating the service are testing the waters to see at what point the number of inquiry's really drop off. Some people would pay thousands to have a PHS for a very valuable Pontiac. Most of us feel the $100.00 or so they currently charge is just about the go, no go point for the E-mail. Probably a smart business move to find that breaking point and then back off $5.00. Honestly, they can charge as much as they want . Where else are you going to get the info?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Picture the basement of an old savings and loan, where the vault is crammed full of stuff and you have to turn sideways to get between the cabinets.

Something like that.

I guess it's not quite that bad -

This was when the office was located at "Shows and Shoots" in Madison Heights Michigan. It has moved since then.

K

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

GIVEN????? THAT IS ONE STORY. This is closer to the real story.

Years ago, when Pontiac announced it was closing its doors, a management decision said basically "everything goes into the dumpster".

So everything "went into the dumpster" I was told, but then Jim did a "Dumpster Dive" and took everything he could out of the dumpster and saved it.

I believe there was some legal opinions filed and the legal people said once it went into the dempster it was no longer GM property.

So Jim was able to save a bunch of Pontiac records but GM was not happy.

I assume the word went around GM, no more "dumpster diving", and the other OEMS followed suit.

A guy named Ran**zo, almost lost his job for climbing into a dumpster at MY work, BUT he was retrieving a part that should not have been thrown in the dumpster in the first place. A Security Guard saw him and tried to have him fired. Management said, "He should not have gone in the dumpster but he retrieved a critical parts that should not have been put in the dumpster in the first place." So Management saved his job. .....Tom V.

Reminds me of a Lengendary tale from GE-Astro East Windsor, circa 1994 the spacraft team was missing a million dollar MUX filter bank (silver-plate caliapy of large, thin metal filters of precise qualities) for a GEO satelite in rapid build. Well, a freegan dumpster-diver employee happen to find the MUX tossed by ????, in this one of all the dumpster diving he did. The MUX would be an above-typical find but within his rhelm of possibilities. About a month since missing a Facility PA announcement went out asking to scour the facility for the lost MUX but known to be received. Fella chimed in that he had it, etc and he became a rather heroic fella in the facility. MUX was blessed with holy water (IP2 and vacuum bake), performance measured and blessed by QC for intended use. Wolud have been hauled off otherwise.

[72projectbird]

Yeah, it's a lot for just an email. I was disappointed when I ordered it for my 77 Y82 I'm doing and discovered they no longer offer hard copies.

Obviously I can just print it out, but it's kinda strange how prices go up and we get less.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

Obviously I can just print it out, but it's kinda strange how prices go up and we get less.

BINGO!!

[John Milner]

$110 is a bargain to me. I have some other GM/Mopar projects that I would love to have info like PHS offers.

[Simple Man]

Originally Posted by John Milner

$110 is a bargain to me. I have some other GM/Mopar projects that I would love to have info like PHS offers.

https://galengovier.com/services/registry/

You know about Galen Govier, for Mopars?

[turbo69bird]

Ok so $110 is a lot for most people w regular every day cars.
Especially if you just want to do a bunch of cars , to double check options see if they are original etc or even to find that needle in the haystack .

Many more people would likely order if it was less. BUT it’s the only game jn town. It’s basically a monopoly . AND it’s a valuable service for the right people. (Myself included in that)

I would bet that even the people w garden variety cars who complain about the $110 would be upset if it was no longer available.
So yes it’s a lot but I’m pretty happy it’s available to
Us at the same time.

[b-man]

It’s worth the money if you need that information.

Playing with old cars has never been a cheap hobby. What difference does another hundred bucks make in comparison to the many thousands we’ve already spent on something we want but don’t really need?

[DavesGTO]

Originally Posted by b-man

It’s worth the money if you need that information.

Playing with old cars has never been a cheap hobby. What difference does another hundred bucks make in comparison to the many thousands we’ve already spent on something we want but don’t really need?

What b-man said, for the money spent on my car, so far, the hundred bucks is like me springing for the large drink instead of the medium. If it were $50 you would still find someone complaining.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[thepontiacman]

People with other cars would love to be able to have factory documentation. Just ask any other car guys, especially other GM brand owners.

From what I understand, GM gets a portion of the money each time a phs report is produced.

Cost of everything has gone up.

I'm glad the information was saved. At least we have the option to get this documentation for our cars.

[John V.]

Pretty funny newspaper ad for "Happy" Harry from 1972 when he was just starting out.

https://digital.bentley.umich.edu/dj...2.05.05.001/14

I thought it was interesting that your '77 TA "cruised" Woodward right from the start.

[bhill86]

Originally Posted by John V.

Pretty funny newspaper ad for "Happy" Harry from 1972 when he was just starting out.

https://digital.bentley.umich.edu/dj...2.05.05.001/14

I thought it was interesting that your '77 TA "cruised" Woodward right from the start.

I ran across that today too. And thought the same thing about Woodward. Car’s been there more than I ever have.

[burd]

I found the building to cruising Woodward, I think this is it, in the Wangers DVD he shows it being a piano shop, it’s now a prosthetic place.