[johnta1]

From Thews ebay thread in 69 Bird section:

ebay ad -64 GTO Conv

Rotated Manifest from ebay ad:




Fisher Request ?


Any ideas?

[Keith Seymore]

Could be anything, at this point.

My initial thought is that Fisher wanted to try some fairly innocuous process change, not requiring engineering involvement or validation, like hitting spot welds in a different order or laying the sheetmetal material in a different way, and then follow up on the effects.

To execute that trial they ordered up a generic vehicle, which then could be placed in dealer stock and sold so there was no cost associated with the trial.

I've done a few of those myself, scribbling on G van firewalls and such that I know no one would ever be able to decipher 50 years after the fact (should they choose to do so). The fact that the car was built in the "home" plant in Pontiac Michigan would tend to support this.

Or - maybe the request was not regarding the content of the vehicle itself, but the build sequence. Meaning - maybe Fisher requested the build timing was pulled ahead to meet some internal timing requirement - or - conversely, delayed to wait for some component that was not yet available.

I don't think we'll ever know for sure, unless we found a significantly larger sample size.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Sidebar: I'm super jealous of those '64 and earlier PHS invoices.

The punch cards for '65 and later, while containing valuable information when decoded, just don't look as much like a build sheet as the earlier ones do.

K

[60sstuff]

This is curious.

Window Sticker does not show a typical automotive dealer to be delivered, but instead it shows Fisher Body Div GMC.

Chris

[Keith Seymore]

Maybe they ordered the car for their own use, as a GM company owned vehicle.

Like a "tagged" vehicle, for development, Marjeting or as a fleet vehicle for motor pool use.

K

[johnta1]

Window Sticker does not show a typical automotive dealer to be delivered, but instead it shows Fisher Body Div GMC.

I wasn't sure that was an original one? Thought probably one made to duplicate a window sticker.
(Cliff would know probably)


Was Pontiac with GMC in 64? (didn't take time to look it up)

[60sstuff]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I wasn't sure that was an original one? Thought probably one made to duplicate a window sticker.
(Cliff would know probably)

I don’t think that is the Original window sticker.

I think when you order the PHS you can pay extra to get the window sticker which pertains to that car and uses the information PHS has on file.

So, someone was able to obtain that (delivered to) Fisher Body Div GMC information for that repro W/S.

I’m sure Mike Noun can shed some light on this.

[John V.]

I wouldn't trust that reproduction Window Sticker.

7.50x14 Whitewalls were NOT extra cost with the GTO option.

The Manifest confirms that it was built with the Code 06 Whitewalls, but they were a No Cost choice for a GTO, you either got the Code 07 Red Lines or the Whitewalls. The two choices are listed in the GTO option description on the Window Sticker.

Ultimate GTO website shows "Dealer Code" 99-998 as Pontiac Motor Racing Division. Not sure where that idea came from or whether it is legitimate for a Dec '63 built '64 GTO.

The Manifest shows it was ordered with the 061 Basic Group option and all of the individual options are coded on the Manifest as expected.

4 bbl Auto Trans GTO doesn't scream Race Car to me.

Fisher Body Div. GMC as the "Deliver To/Charge To Dealer" seems more likely so perhaps 99-998 was a sorta catchall "Dealer Code" for interdivisional "sales".

Perhaps used for some sort of Fisher Body Display or possibly a Show car (Detroit Auto Show perhaps?).

Possibly the origins of the Flamme Show Car except that it is believed that car was originated as a Lemans and only later converted to exhibit GTO badging.

But the colors are suggestive of it, Grenadier Red with Red Bucket Seat Interior. Maybe intended as a flashy knock-off of the actual Show Car by mimicking the red color scheme?

Sales Class code J on the Manifest indicates a "Zone Stock" sale, I believe this was the standard Sales Class for any Company Car. It isn't known if PMD actually was building cars for Zone inventory in '64. Doesn't seem probable since Sales Class J builds are rare for '64 as compared to what we've seen for '69 Zone Stock inventory builds.

Curiously, the Data Plate shows 5 Group Code 1X, Power Windows.

But Sales Code 551 not coded on the Manifest.

Couldn't detect any evidence of the switches but could be an imprint of one on the passenger side door panel? I'm not familiar with where the switches were located, perhaps someone else can tell.

The front seats are not '64 Lemans but not sure what they are from. Possibly Corvette with leather upholstery? Not sure why the top of the dash is painted black, should be a darker shade of Red. The Console isn't right for a '64 either.

Doubt the engine is a '64 or a Tripower.

Auction doesn't provide many details but that will be a huge project.

[John V.]

John, assuming that the verbiage is correct (and that is a big assumption), in this context I believe it is saying Fisher Body Div. of General Motors Corporation rather than indicating any connection to GMC Truck Div.

PMD was also a Division of GMC in this context. JMO.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by 60sstuff

Window Sticker does not show a typical automotive dealer to be delivered, but instead it shows Fisher Body Div GMC

Thats a RePop
If it was done by Mike Noun, he probably had the 99-998 code on file.
If by PHS, it was probably bounced off the fact it says Fisher Request - and the oddballer code. And they filled in the blank

Wallace's site shows 99-998 as PMD Racing
i think that is an error of someone else's submission

Over in the Motherland , 998 would be Engineering Dept (35-998)
I'm going on the limb to best guess this was built for Fisher Body Engineering Dept.
I don't think it was a "Company Car" as to say a vested employee using it for 3 months / 3,000 miles.
Because it is taking place on Dec 4 in MICHIGAN and it is a CONVERTIBLE.
They would have been driving a Convertible from Dec to February in Michigan, doesn't seem practical at all.
Plus it's not optioned very uppity
but hey - some people are weird

I would go along with Keith's idea that it was probably used more in a quality check or quality control capacity.

J is a Stock/Inventory Code - and it spells out STOCK right on the document.
It is "tagged" - Code 1
But no name listed in lower ledger
Mostly it looks like a Tester , to me.

I absolutely do not think it was a Race Car or a Pace Car
but would love to be wrong about that

[Tom Vaught]

John V, can you compare MY 64 GTO Convertible PHS to the one posted in this thread?

Do not post the actual PHS paperwork please. You have a copy of my PHS.

As you know, my GTO is Grenadier Red with Red Bucket Seat Interior.
Never thought of it as being Flashy though.

It could very well have been a Zone Car in 1964, John L's Brass Hat car was a Zone Car in 1964.
Mine as you know is a April build.

Tom V.

[Jerry H.]

Those seats look like mid 60's Galaxie XL buckets, and the shifter looks to be out of a 66-7 ST 300 A body Pontiac.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Its got a column shift index marker on top of the column, and no console listed on the Window Sticker.
The hood and steering wheel both look restorable, thats getting somewhere these days.

[johnta1]

(Cliff would know probably)

This is actually supposed to be Mike Noun. Brain fart.



Thanks for the info John. I hadn't thought of the General Motors Co. thing.

Wallace's site shows 99-998 as PMD Racing
i think that is an error of someone else's submission

It was someone else's submission. I have added this car to the database now.

John, would that VIN be in range of that cowl tag number and date code?

[johnta1]

In the 67-69 Bird thread, 71GP76TA said they were T-bird seats.
(wouldn't know what they look like)

[John V.]

John, the VIN, Time Built code, and the Lemans Convertible Body No. (3036) all seem to be as expected. From my records, the Pontiac Plant was producing about 250 Lemans Convertibles per week in January and February. I didn't find any Lemans Convertible records between early Nov and the end of the year. But at the start of November they had produced a shade more than 1800 so if they did about 1200 in November, 3036 would be right on target for a Body Assembly produced in the last days of Nov. And 1200 seems to be right in line with what I would expect. By mid Jan they had produced right at 4500 Lemans Convertibles, I'd estimate they had produced about 4000 by the end of Dec..

BVZ, good catch on the Console or lack thereof. If it had been built with the Floor Shift Automatic, the Console would have been coded in Box 60 on the Manifest (Sales Code 601). Box 60 is blank, so no Console.

As for the "Dealer Code" 99-998", I pulled the record for an early November built GTO Convertible with the same 99-998 code. This record shows "TAG LA CO. CAR P HARRIS".

Same Sales Class J. Same 1 in the "TAG FOR" box.

This GTO was supposed to have gotten Code 512 Door Edge Guards but they were not installed so a handwritten notation was added to say, " Built Less 512" with some additional stamped and handwritten markings associated with that missing option.

Another stamping with blanks filled in by hand to show:

"D" Card # 553 Issued For
Zone Sundry Inv. # 17-2596
To Add/Delete Undercoat 20.00
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Fla. lic. 7.00

The word Delete is crossed out. Note, the "17" in the Zone Sundry Inv. # refers to Zone 17, the Jacksonville, Fla Zone. Sounds to me like PMD was accounting for the Florida tags and Dealer Undercoating that were added upon delivery.

The verbiage typed in concerning the "TAG" has me wondering if "LA" should have read "FLA". If anybody else has an idea what "LA" was intended to mean, have at it. No idea who P. Harris might have been but if the GTO was registered in Florida with Florida plates, I assume he was an exec in the Jacksonville zone.

The GTO was a lot more heavily optioned than the one discussed in this thread. Also 79J 4 bbl Automatic, Grenadier Red but with Black Top and Black interior (not the best choice for Florida!). But it did have Air Conditioning. Included all Group options (061, 062, 081, & 084 as seen in the ACCY GRPS. box) plus PB Radio w/ Power Antenna, Console, Clock, Wood Wheel, Spinners, and Safe-T-Track. I'm thinking Harris was well up the food chain to merit such a pricey GTO.

Still thinking the Fisher Body GTO was intended for some sort of a display purpose. A low optioned car used for a static display is logical to me, no sense loading it with options if nobody was actually gonna drive it. One might argue, why option it at all. I'd suggest so it could be easily sold once the Model Year ended. Either that or the Fisher Body employee that got it didn't qualify for a high dollar vehicle given the few options it got.

The lack of a tagged to name on the Manifest doesn't disqualify it as a Co. Car IMO. Fisher Body was a separate Div., PMD wouldn't be tracking their Co. Cars like they would their own employee's Co. Cars. I recall a similar record destined for the AC Spark Plug Div., I don't think it showed an individual's name either. And surely AC Spark Plug didn't need an assembled car to test their spark plugs.

Don't assume that it remained in Michigan either. Both the Fisher GTO and the Harris GTO show an RTG. (Routing) code of 3. Pretty sure this means that both GTOs left the Pontiac Final Assembly Plant and were loaded onto a truck for Transport. The Harris GTO headed to Florida by the evidence. No idea where the Fisher Body GTO was headed but if it was the Fisher Body Plant adjacent to Final Assembly, surely it didn't need to be moved there by truck.

This should make it obvious that 99-998 wasn't for a specific location.

If the ownership history is known to a significant extent, might be able to get some idea where Fisher took possession of it. But that is probably a long shot given the present condition.

[John V.]

Tom, a new Red Convertible of any model regardless of interior was pretty flashy back in 1964, IMO! Even as a kid back then, I would notice them. I just knew that the guy that drove one had to be cool. I've always been a sucker for a Red interior. I special ordered my first new car, the '80 Phoenix SJ coupe with the hobnail cloth Carmine (red) interior.

Yours had the White Top, the Fisher GTO had the Black Top.

Not much similarity in Drivetrain as yours was Tripower and 4 spd. We've discussed your rear axle. Per the Shipping Order and presumably how it left the Assembly Line, your GTO also had the 3.23 ratio (standard after early Jan in the Tripower). Both had the optional Safe-T-Track too.

Yours had the Red Lines., Fisher GTO had the Whitewalls.

Yours had many more options as compared to the Fisher GTO.

Since your GTO was built at the Kansas City Plant, the Chevy form Shipping Record doesn't provide all of the data that is found on the Pontiac Plant Manifest Record.

The SOS, Tag For, Routing, and Sales Class boxes aren't included on the Chevy form.

Yours does however identify the Dealer Code.

In your case it is identified as 12-992.

Zone 12 was the St. Louis, MO zone.

For the '69 Dealer Invoice records, we can determine whether the car was immediately put into service as a Co. Car by the Zone or if it was shipped to a Zone Storage Facility where it sat unsold/unused until a Dealer within the Zone purchased it out of Zone Stock inventory and took possession of it. Zone Stock inventory builds were very common in '69.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, in '64 it does not seem that Pontiac was yet producing cars for Zone Stock inventory as cars that did not initially ship to an actual retail dealer are few and far between. And it is usually obvious that the ones that didn't were immediately put into service as a Co. Car like the Harris GTO or some other obvious usage such as the Wangers Red GTO.

So I would think your car was one such Co. Car. Except the KC Shipping Records don't provide any Tag For info.

On the Fremont records, the actual destination for a particular 99x code within one of the west coast Zones can be connected to an address since the destination address is shown on the Manifest Record.

But if 12-992 is intended to identify a specific destination, the KC Shipping Record doesn't provide any clue.

Each Zone seems to have had at least a few different 99x codes. In '69, that might have meant that Zone Stock inventory could be stored in one of a few different storage locations within any given Zone.

In '64, I don't really have a guess as to why one Pontiac may have been identified by 12-991 and another by 12-992.

But my best guess is that your GTO was originally put into service as a Co. Car. When it was time for the exec to obtain a new Co. Car, it became available to dealers in the St. Louis Zone at a significant discount. I assume your Uncle was in the St. Louis Zone. He may have even gotten first dibs on it if he was well connected to the Zone exec who was using it.

Whether it was an "authorized" test bed for the changes that took place prior to your possession or if the exec who possessed it as a Co. Car was just a gearhead who made the mods on his own nickel because, well, he had the wherewithal and dealer connections to make it happen (in exchange for favors?) hardly matters. But the Shipping Record doesn't provide any clues.

Although the KC record has a good bit of data that isn't provided on the Pontiac Plant records, the Tag For info on the Pontiac Plant records just isn't found on the KC records.

Hope this is helpful.

[Tom Vaught]

My understanding was The Zone Executive, (possibly for the St Louis Zone, may very well have been the gentleman whose name you know). He received the car and was shortly promoted to an even higher in the Pontiac Sales organization. But he seemed to move around somewhat during that time frame. The vehicle arrived in central Missouri and was stored in one of my grandfather's barns. I first saw it there, and do not have a clue for the path of how it was shipped from its original location.

The Brass Hat and my uncle could have made all of the arrangements over the phone.
I just sent the car payment to my uncle. The car was tagged as a Missouri Car, until I moved to Michigan and lived with my uncle's family in 1970.

Tom V.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by John V.

The lack of a tagged to name on the Manifest doesn't disqualify it as a Co. Car IMO. Fisher Body was a separate Div., PMD wouldn't be tracking their Co. Cars like they would their own employee's Co. Cars. I recall a similar record destined for the AC Spark Plug Div., I don't think it showed an individual's name either. And surely AC Spark Plug didn't need an assembled car to test their spark plugs.

I agree about not completely disqualifying this car in almost any form towards almost anything.

However the AC Spark Plug, Inland Mfg, FisherBody-General Offices, that I have on file are Sales Code S with 60-xxx designators.
Fleet Cars
Different little animals that don't belong in compare with this car.
Double check your AC Spark Plug example and see if it follows those as well.

This car is Sales Code J , so still under PMD in full form.

All the 64's i have on file that are name tagged, well - they have names on them.
Have to lean towards the majority when in doubt.

Don't assume that it remained in Michigan either. Both the Fisher GTO and the Harris GTO show an RTG. (Routing) code of 3. Pretty sure this means that both GTOs left the Pontiac Final Assembly Plant and were loaded onto a truck for Transport.

Wangers Red-Ringer 64 GTO also has RTG 3 , trying to remember the story if he drove it out of Engineering himself, could be a wives tale. But there are stories of Royal transporting/retrieving most or all of their cars themselves.
Gonna hold off on that code 3 for now.
Inconclusive

This should make it obvious that 99-998 wasn't for a specific location.

I don't see anything obvious yet.
Going to wait on that one too. It may pop up on an invoice some day.
997 and 998 are heavy codes with pretty direct tie-ins, historically.

Good thoughts and ideas though, never hurts to guess.
It's about all we can do on this one.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I don't see anything obvious yet.

Actually - I Do
But heck it's almost Christmas - gonna let it slide.