[Navy Horn 16]

Originally Posted by F ROCK

Respectfully, my 1971 owners manual says supplements not recommended.

LoL. That's because roller lifters weren't introduced by GM until 1987. It was years after this that the oil companies started adjusting the standard oil formulations to delete the (no longer needed) zinc due to flat tappet camshaft vehicles leaving the segment.

You aren't going to find anything in that owners manual about hooking up an MP3 player either.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by 78w72

the conventional VR1 oil in the grey bottle is rated for street use & has detergents. the black bottle pro-v racing oil is the one that is not rated for street use.

https://www.valvoline.com/our-produc...vr1-racing-oil



yes. nothing wrong with using a specialty oil, but those cams/springs dont need a crazy high amount of zinc. another option to look at for common available oils with higher zinc is to use a diesel oil, its a very good oil & has about 1000ppm zddp which is more than enough for a mild street cam. ive been using delo-400 in a cam similar to the 2801 & have used the older rotella-t, (which is actually on the lower side of zddp numbers for diesel oil today) but have also used standard conventional oils like valvoline white bottle with zero issues.

a big thing thats still overlooked is that todays oils are far better than oil of even 15-20 years ago & especially the older stuff from the 70s & 80's that used to create sludge or coke etc... todays oils use far better base oil & modern additives that negate the need for super high zddp levels in mild cams like you are running. big race & solid lifter cams are a different story.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up diesel oil. Where I work we sell Delvac and Rotella products. Rotella even makes an oil for gasoline engines now in a red bottle. Never bought into the diesel oil use in gasoline engines however because of the different parameters each engine was designed to run on. Some I know tell me that diesel oil is bad on the bearings of a gasoline engine and others tell me it is great with the added ZDDP. To each his own. Again use what you're comfortable with. BTW grey bottle Valvoline VR1 may have a detergent package in it though the spec sheet doesn't say much about it. Still a racing oil and the Valvoline in the white bottles are designed more for street use where engines aren't torn down on a regular basis. This debate goes on and on and everyone uses something different. I say fine, use what you think is best.....

[F ROCK]

Originally Posted by Navy Horn 16

LoL. That's because roller lifters weren't introduced by GM until 1987. It was years after this that the oil companies started adjusting the standard oil formulations to delete the (no longer needed) zinc due to flat tappet camshaft vehicles leaving the segment.

You aren't going to find anything in that owners manual about hooking up an MP3 player either.

LOL...I knew someone was going to play this card.

I was respectfully replying to the comment below:


My 1965 Owners Manual states:
A can of Engine Oil Supplement (E.O.S.) must be added at each oil change.
Kenth
Ultimate Warrior

Kenth's 1965 owners manual says a can of EOS at every oil change; while my 1971 owners manual says no supplements are recommended; and the EOS bottle also says not for supplemental use.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Navy Horn 16

LoL. That's because roller lifters weren't introduced by GM until 1987. It was years after this that the oil companies started adjusting the standard oil formulations to delete the (no longer needed) zinc due to flat tappet camshaft vehicles leaving the segment.

You aren't going to find anything in that owners manual about hooking up an MP3 player either.

reduction of zddp in oil had noting to do with FT cams leaving the segment... its was strictly due to catalytic converts being damaged from it.

Originally Posted by Ram Air IV Jack

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up diesel oil. Where I work we sell Delvac and Rotella products. Rotella even makes an oil for gasoline engines now in a red bottle. Never bought into the diesel oil use in gasoline engines however because of the different parameters each engine was designed to run on. Some I know tell me that diesel oil is bad on the bearings of a gasoline engine and others tell me it is great with the added ZDDP. To each his own. Again use what you're comfortable with. BTW grey bottle Valvoline VR1 may have a detergent package in it though the spec sheet doesn't say much about it. Still a racing oil and the Valvoline in the white bottles are designed more for street use where engines aren't torn down on a regular basis. This debate goes on and on and everyone uses something different. I say fine, use what you think is best.....

i agree with the "use what you want" approach... but diesel oil will not harm or damage bearings in any way shape or form, never heard that one before. diesel oils are fully API rated & compatible for gasoline engine use even before rotella came out with the gas engine options, probably mostly due to marketing.

grey bottle vr1 is fully rated for street use, call valvoline tech & ask, doesnt need to be mentioned in the spec sheet. & being this is the street section, who tares down their engines on a "regular basis"?

[Steve C.]

Too Much Zinc In Your Oil?

TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, VALVOLINE LUBRICANTS:

https://www.motorweek.org/features/g...nc_in_your_oil


What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?

The controversy exists as a result of many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts belief that lower levels of zinc in API SN and SM motor oils can cause excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. They hold this belief despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible.


.

[Steve C.]

Why can’t I just add a bottle of zinc additive to my oil and then just use regular off-the-shelf oil?

https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/...to-save-money/

Race vs. Street Oil and Lubricants: The Great Zinc Debate Continues

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...ate-continues/


DIESEL OIL NOT GOOD FOR GAS ENGINES

If diesel oils are so good, why don't car manufacturers recommend their use in gasoline engines? It's because diesel oils fail in one critical area when used in gasoline engines. API-rated diesel CC or CD oils do not meet the engine-cleanliness parameters set for oils rated SF for gasoline engines.


One can Google so much related opinions it can make the head spin
.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Too Much Zinc In Your Oil?

TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, VALVOLINE LUBRICANTS:

https://www.motorweek.org/features/g...nc_in_your_oil


What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?

The controversy exists as a result of many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts belief that lower levels of zinc in API SN and SM motor oils can cause excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. They hold this belief despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible.


.

great info! hopefully hearing it direct from the horses mouth will help others that think they need excessive amounts of zddp or need to add some willy nilly amount from an additive.

& heres valvolines FAQ on the subject that quote came from.

https://www.valvoline.com/about-us/faq/racing-oil-faq

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

DIESEL OIL NOT GOOD FOR GAS ENGINES

If diesel oils are so good, why don't car manufacturers recommend their use in gasoline engines? It's because diesel oils fail in one critical area when used in gasoline engines. API-rated diesel CC or CD oils do not meet the engine-cleanliness parameters set for oils rated SF for gasoline engines.


One can Google so much related opinions it can make the head spin
.

how old is that quote? SF rated oil was for 1979-1988 & CC & CD was for 1990-1994!

i know youre just posting something you found on google but that one is way outdated.

[Steve C.]

It was posted for interest and not a fact beyond discussion. And a fwiw, I've seen other related material.


Here, go for it......

https://blog.amsoil.com/can-i-use-di...my-gas-engine/


But I'm sure it does not apply to our Pontiac engines....

Diesel engine oil has more additives per volume. The most prevalent are overbase detergent additives. This additive has several jobs, but the main ones are to neutralize acids and clean. Diesel engines create a great deal more soot and combustion byproducts. Through blow-by, these find their way into the crankcase, forcing the oil to deal with them. When you put this extra additive load in a gasoline engine, the effects can be devastating to performance. The detergent will work as it is designed and try to clean the cylinder walls. This can have an adverse effect on the seal between the rings and liner, resulting in lost compression and efficiency.

[Schurkey]

'Cause it's WAY too difficult to LOOK AT THE FRIGGIN' BOTTLE to see if your "Diesel oil" has a spark-ignition rating, and if so, which spark-ignition rating.

When flat-tappet cams started failing prematurely--twenty years ago or more--Cam companies were quick to blame the oil instead of their use of junk Communist Chinese cam cores and lifters. If they could blame the oil, they had an excuse to deny warranty coverage; and it hid the fact that they were selling substandard product.

Twenty years later, everyone is STILL worried about the oil, and not holding the cam/lifter suppliers accountable for the mess they created by shipping bottom-feeder product.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

'Cause it's WAY too difficult to LOOK AT THE FRIGGIN' BOTTLE to see if your "Diesel oil" has a spark-ignition rating, and if so, which spark-ignition rating.

When flat-tappet cams started failing prematurely--twenty years ago or more--Cam companies were quick to blame the oil instead of their use of junk Communist Chinese cam cores and lifters. If they could blame the oil, they had an excuse to deny warranty coverage; and it hid the fact that they were selling substandard product.

Twenty years later, everyone is STILL worried about the oil, and not holding the cam/lifter suppliers accountable for the mess they created by shipping bottom-feeder product.

Just to add to what Shurkey has said, the elimination of flat tappets at this point in history, and the switch to rollerized hydraulic lifters, was to sidestep the flat tappet wear problem. The aftermarket cam companies didn't learn one iota from the flat tappet fiasco, and sourced many of the new roller lifters from overseas.

If anyone has been around PY for any length of time they've read about the hydraulic roller lifter failures, and the tickers that plagued the people that bought, and paid big money for again, "substandard parts", that either failed right out of the box, or in a short period of time.

My point of view about using diesel oil in gasoline engines is the formulation for the two oils is different, they may overlap on some aspects, but is close enough, really close enough? I continue to run motor oils that were formulated for gasoline engines, because if you ask someone in the tech departments of the oil companies, what they recommend for flat tappet engines, it won't be diesel oil. I'm thoroughly aware that there are probably hundreds of people on this board running Rotella, or something equal, and getting by with it, it's just not what I'm going to do on my own stuff.

The oil companies also never recommend additives being added to their oil as upsetting the chemistry of the additive package can make the problem worse, they'd rather you consult them for the correct oil from the beginning. All major oil companies don't cover every niche in the high performance aftermarket area either. The exact reason there are products from companies like Lucas, Amsoil, Driven, Brad Penn, etc.

I just had a member on here contact to me recently about wiping a cam lobe and the face of one lifter right after initial start up of a fresh engine. He requested the builder use the superior quality Johnson lifters, however the builder instead used the Summit hydraulic lifters that came with the cam. Why did one lifter fail and all the others looked fine? Could be a multitude of reasons, and he may never know the exact reason for the expensive, time consuming failure. Chances are good that Summit uses who ever lifters are the cheapest bidder. It's been said on here that if you ask Summit whose lifters they sell, you won't get any answers.

[68bird400HO]

Ended up going Mobil1 Synthetic Extended Performance. I found the product data sheets for their 3 synthetics (regular, high mileage, and extended performance) and they still have 900 ppm zinc and 800 phos in their 10w30. Maybe that is the norm with other brands too but couldn't find this info for them.

I think with that and just being a better oil than the old formulations, I should be fine for what I am running.

[geeteeohguy]

Been running diesel spec Rotella or Delo in all my flat tappet engines for the past 12-15 years and tens of thousands of miles. No issue. My two GTO's and Corvette are running cams that are 35-40 years old, as well as the lifters. Crane, Melling, and Sig Erson. No issues at all. Tore my '67 GTO engine down to do a reseal job and rear main in 2011, after about 88,000 miles of use since my rebuild in the 1980's and the engine looked new inside, the bearings were like new as well. That engine has almost 255,000 miles on it, over 90k since rebuilt. The 389 in my '65 GTO has been running strong since its 1981 rebuild 39 years ago.....all with properly heat treated, made in America parts. Prior to the ZDDP removal, I ran these engines on Valvoline and Kendall regular oils.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

Ended up going Mobil1 Synthetic Extended Performance. I found the product data sheets for their 3 synthetics (regular, high mileage, and extended performance) and they still have 900 ppm zinc and 800 phos in their 10w30. Maybe that is the norm with other brands too but couldn't find this info for them.

I think with that and just being a better oil than the old formulations, I should be fine for what I am running.

Mobil 1 has several oils that have higher zinc and phosphorous levels than their standard 10w30.

They specifically recommend the 15W50 for flat tappet applications -1300/1200 PPM.

They also have the 0W40 that is the spec oil for Mercedes, Porsche and some others that has 1100/1000 PPM.

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Mobil 1 has several oils that have higher zinc and phosphorous levels than their standard 10w30.

They specifically recommend the 15W50 for flat tappet applications -1300/1200 PPM.

They also have the 0W40 that is the spec oil for Mercedes, Porsche and some others that has 1100/1000 PPM.

Yup, I saw that those were available too. I am not a fan of that oil weight in my street motor. I know VR1 is available in 10w30 but as I am understanding, is not really needed. Too much zinc for your application is not a good thing either.

[PDC]

I’ve used the Mobil 15/50 which they do state in their own literature is intended for FT cams. Seems pretty comparable to Gibbs ‘Driven’ 15/50 full synthetic. The cold flow rate of a fully synthetic 15 weight isn’t much different than a conventional 10 weight. I will say, it appears pretty ‘thin’ when you pour it from the bottle. I don’t turn the key on this car if the outdoor ambient temp is lower than 50* and most of the miles are in the summer during 80* days. No complaints here, but I do wish they offered it in the more ‘standard’ 10/40 weight.

[The Champ]

68bird

I thought that you might not want the 15w50, as you were asking about 10w30. As PDC points out - the pour point of Mobil1 synthetic is much lower than conventional oil.

My engine builder recommended running 20w50 in my engine, but as I live in MN I opted for the Mobil1 15w50 to allow me to run the car in the cooler months. I've been using it for 7 years.

But that's why I pointed out the 0w40 - which gives you more range both top and bottom than the 10w30. I run the 0w40 in my wife's Camaro and have been for 15 years.

The ZDDP levels of the 10w30 you selected are virtually the same as any conventional oil out there. I was under the impression you were looking for an oil with more ZDDP than regular off the shelf oil.

[Cliff R]

"When flat-tappet cams started failing prematurely--twenty years ago or more--Cam companies were quick to blame the oil instead of their use of junk Communist Chinese cam cores and lifters. If they could blame the oil, they had an excuse to deny warranty coverage; and it hid the fact that they were selling substandard product."

EXACTLY.

The entire fiasco was nothing more than outsourcing and the good lifter companies here not being able to keep up with production and stay in business.

All sort of debates raged on about why we started seeing so many lifter failures. Improper "break-in" procedures, not removing inner springs, not using good break-in lubricants, etc, etc. It's low quality junk lifters for the most part. Some companies may also be using soft cores.

Right around 2003-2004 a very good friend and one of the best and most meticulous engine builder I know built a W-30 455 Oldsmobile engine. I did the carb for it. Before it had 15 minutes on it running 1500rpm to "break-in" the cam it has chewed over half the lobes off the cam and was sounding like a thrashing machine!

It pumped tons of ground of iron thru the engine requiring it to be removed and rebuilt again.

The cam he put in the engine was a Comp XE274 with their lifters. He had never used a Comp XE cam previously but was somewhat "old school" and liked their "Magnum" series cams and had never had an issue with one.

Anyhow, since he did EVERYTHING right with the XE cam, used their lube, the best high performance lube oil out there, it roared to life instantly, correct spring pressures, and kept it at 1500rpm's the entire time with 60psi oil pressure the ONLY way it ate the cam and lifters up was because they were JUNK right to start with......IMHO.....

[Formulajones]

[QUOTE=The Champ;6137584]68bird

I thought that you might not want the 15w50, as you were asking about 10w30. As PDC points out - the pour point of Mobil1 synthetic is much lower than conventional oil.

My engine builder recommended running 20w50 in my engine, but as I live in MN I opted for the Mobil1 15w50 to allow me to run the car in the cooler months. I've been using it for 7 years.

/QUOTE]

Yep, I've posted the cold pour point chart of various oils on several occasions here. I'm sure it could be found with a savvy PY searcher.
Point being Champ is correct. Many of your good synthetics in 15w and even 20w have a much better cold rating than many other oils, even better than many 10w oils. Matter of fact there are 20W's rated way below what any enthusiast here has to deal with as far as cold start temps, or would even care to drive their cars in for that matter.

[Region Warrior]

So I guess using regular Valvoline 30w 1st 20 yrs, then switching to 5w30 regular Valvoline last 20 was wrong thing to do.
Maybe should tear down leak free/don't use oil engines...