[Formulajones]

That's been a lot of my experience lately for the most part. Even new parts today stating made in the USA are a bit of a misnomer if you pay attention to how that works these days.

So ya just have to roll the dice, buy and use what you can find and cross your fingers. Carry spares for the long road trips and hope things go well. At this point I'm just happy things are still being made at all for these old cars.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by GTO-relic

I put a fresh 455 in my GTO back in December 2021, went through same thing, but with electric pump. I always ran an electric at the tank pushing into a mechanical pump on street engine. Combed Ebay found NOS vintage mechanical pumps, and bought a good one replacement for SD455. also a few SD421 stock pumps as spares. all USA made. then tried to buy a made in USA Carter electric pump self regulated 6.5 psi which I always ran on street cars since 1985. no dice. there ain't none. bought the made in China "Carter", it ran but pumped no fuel right from the get go. then it worked, then didn't work. so I removed it. what a POS. I had already known about the poor quality Chinese parts. every thing in my engine is NOS old USA made parts off Ebay or message boards or friends who still had it laying around. Cam, lifters, head gaskets, SD455 oil pump, bearings, everything. there is a difference, reliability, and superior metallurgy. another thing I noticed is all the vintage Pontiac NOS stuff I had in my saved items on Ebay, it eventually all sold....so everything is realizing the same thing. we have a parts chain with schit parts quality from China

This is EXACTLY what I have been saying for years!!! Most of the Chinese stuff is junk and won't last!! Then you hear the BS about NOS pumps are not to be trusted because they are old!! OK, so let's trust the Chinese stuff instead?? Come on people, that is insane!! The real reason people don't go NOS is the cost of these parts!! Cliff R commented on this and said he's had numerous cheap customers try the Chinese fuel pumps 3, 4, or more times then throw in the towel. and go in a different direction!! I agree here. The cost of NOS parts is very high but as I mentioned before, these parts get sold quickly for obvious reasons! It is a personal decision, but if you have a rare/original ride, I would think you would want to use as many factory parts as possible!!!

[Formulajones]

Personally, I save the NOS parts for high end (expensive) restorations that need it for one reason or another, not particularly for the reason of reliability per say, because cars like that aren't really driven much at all.

It really just depends on the purpose of the car. Since I daily drive classics, I look more towards reliability, so NOS wouldn't make much sense on consumable parts. So I go a different direction that I explained earlier in this thread, and it would apply to most people here that basically have nice classic cars they enjoy that are not necessarily concours restored stuff.

Want reliability? 2 things I've found that work reliably. Either a RobbMC pump that uses good internals, and even offers cheap rebuild kits for easy repair when the time comes. Carry a spare.
Or..... get yourself an EFI tank, put a good Walbro pump in the tank with proper feed and return lines and enjoy a more modern fuel system that is used in millions of cars on the roads today. That's about as good as it gets.

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by Ram Air IV Jack

This is EXACTLY what I have been saying for years!!! Most of the Chinese stuff is junk and won't last!! Then you hear the BS about NOS pumps are not to be trusted because they are old!! OK, so let's trust the Chinese stuff instead?? Come on people, that is insane!! The real reason people don't go NOS is the cost of these parts!! Cliff R commented on this and said he's had numerous cheap customers try the Chinese fuel pumps 3, 4, or more times then throw in the towel. and go in a different direction!! I agree here. The cost of NOS parts is very high but as I mentioned before, these parts get sold quickly for obvious reasons! It is a personal decision, but if you have a rare/original ride, I would think you would want to use as many factory parts as possible!!!

Jack - I think everyone agrees that most Chinese stuff is junk. But just because a part is GM or Delco doesn't make it immortal. Yes, NOS parts that don't have soft components are expensive and maybe worth the cost. But rubber diaphragms will deteriorate over time from sitting, much like your tires will petrify over time and become unsafe after 15 or 20 years. NOS parts with these soft components are a risk to use. People can ask what they want and may find someone to pay it, but that doesn't make it a safe reliable part for a car that gets driven.

This is not my first rodeo with fuel pump failures, just my first recent one where no good stock replacements are available anymore. About 30 years ago I had a fuel pump go while driving my 69 GS Stage1. It started running rough so I tried getting it home and didn't realize it was leaking gas into my oil pan. Needless to say, it took out my bottom end and had to yank the motor. I actually didn't know it could do that. So, yeah, I am not going to trust rubber that's been sitting a shelf for 30+ years for this particular item.

With that said, I did pick up a USA made stock replacement that is less than 10 years old with the correct arm. The bird is alive again.

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

Jack - I think everyone agrees that most Chinese stuff is junk.

I don't blame that on China. Junk is junk no matter where it's made. This may be my perpetual rant, but IMO it's the brands that control the design and manufacturing that LET IT be junk. If you hire a Chinese manufacturer to make your fuel pump and you accept junk, it's on you, not the manufacturer. Just my opinion...

... But rubber diaphragms will deteriorate over time from sitting, much like your tires will petrify over time and become unsafe after 15 or 20 years. NOS parts with these soft components are a risk to use. People can ask what they want and may find someone to pay it, but that doesn't make it a safe reliable part for a car that gets driven...

I think this is good insight. Polymers deteriorate. Chemical bonds break. Heat and ozone accelerate that. Polymer and elastomer chemistry has advanced a lot in 50 years.

With that said, I did pick up a USA made stock replacement that is less than 10 years old with the correct arm. The bird is alive again.

Excellent! Glad you found a pump that is working well for you, at least so far! And I hope it lasts forever!

And forgive me for repeating my rant, but your USA pump suggests the brand knows what a good pump is. 10 years later that same brand decided they would roll over and accept lesser quality when they sourced from a foreign manufacturer. JMO...

Mike

[Trevor78]

Spot on, there's some very high quality items produced in China. If that's what is required, they will do it. But if the company wants cheap and good enough and to keep it cheap by using unskilled workers and limited quality control, you get that also. The problem comes when you can't trust the higher price to be the better item and not just inflated profits on the cheap and nasty item. Many don't know what they sell either.

[Sirrotica]

The consumer is why auto parts are sourced from overseas, rather than made from more reliable vendors with better quality parts. Back in the 80s the low dollar parts started working their way into the parts channels.

Back then an X body GM car CV joint was right around $200, the low dollar imports from places like china were $60, Am Gauge was the cheapest priced parts out there, we mechanics called them WHAM GAUGE, cause you're going to get spanked......

What is the average joe going to buy? He can barely afford to make car payments, buy gas, and oil for his car to get back, and forth to work. Naturally he's gonna buy the cheap import part, and hope for the best. I've been in the auto repair field since before I graduated in 1970. This was the beginning of the cheap offshore parts market. There were cheap parts available before then, but most of them were avoided like the plague, and the cheap outlets soon went out of business. JC Whitney, (now Carparts.com), and Warshawskys stuck around longer han they should have, the Spiegel catlogue for car parts.....

As median household incomes dropped, and the internet started to be used more by everyone, the only thing that people wanted to know, is how much can I buy that part for, the cheaper the better for them. They'll argue with countermen if a competitors price is a dollar less.

Chains started advertising that they'll beat anyones price, That guarantee that they'll beat anyones price, is a serious problem. They'll sell you a part with a 90 day warranty, and people will still buy it, even though it's basically a curbside warranty, if your car makes it past the curb, you own it.

It makes me sick to try and sort out formerly quality brands, and prices to get something that will last at least a few years, and most times these parts are going on my own cars, and I hate doing work over because of defective parts.

Some people don't care if they have to put in 3 starters before they get one that works. The store with the lowest prices was king, so soon all the legitimate manufacturers started loosing sales, and they had to do something to compete, and they either cheapen their products across all lines, or come out with a economy parts line for price shoppers.

The pinch of the middle class with low wages, drove consumers to become their own worst enemies. It's not just car parts, it's everything we buy. The atttude now is, If I can't afford quality, I'll be content with second rate garbage. Rant over.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

Jack - I think everyone agrees that most Chinese stuff is junk. But just because a part is GM or Delco doesn't make it immortal. Yes, NOS parts that don't have soft components are expensive and maybe worth the cost. But rubber diaphragms will deteriorate over time from sitting, much like your tires will petrify over time and become unsafe after 15 or 20 years. NOS parts with these soft components are a risk to use. People can ask what they want and may find someone to pay it, but that doesn't make it a safe reliable part for a car that gets driventeriora

This is not my first rodeo with fuel pump failures, just my first recent one where no good stock replacements are available anymore. About 30 years ago I had a fuel pump go while driving my 69 GS Stage1. It started running rough so I tried getting it home and didn't realize it was leaking gas into my oil pan. Needless to say, it took out my bottom end and had to yank the motor. I actually didn't know it could do that. So, yeah, I am not going to trust rubber that's been sitting a shelf for 30+ years for this particular item.

With that said, I did pick up a USA made stock replacement that is less than 10 years old with the correct arm. The bird is alive again.

Pat, the rubber theory of yours about tires doesn't hold a hill of beans!! Take a good look at my tires the next time you see my car. Those Firestone Wide Ovals are over 30 years old and still look great, like the day I bought them. Granted, rubber can deteriorate with time and age, but if cared for, can last indefinitely!! Not all Chinese parts are junk, but many of them are. I also know that GM parts are not perfect, but you have a much better chance of getting a decent part that will last rather than something made overseas!! GM made most fuel pumps for the late 60's cars up until about 2009 so you might not get one that is 30 yrs old.

I'm sure your real reason is the cost, and many people would agree with you as was pointed out earlier. But in this time of cheap parts being reproduced overseas, things have changed. Case in point, I was once told that the NOS strips for a 69 Judge would not be good to buy because the glue would be dried up and never hold. I proved that theory incorrect too and bought a set that looked and went on perfect about 32 years after they were made. Now they cost me triple what the reproduction stripes would cost but the color shades are correct where the reproduction colors are slightly off.

Cliff R is the real guru here and someone to listen to. When Cliff chimed in here a few days ago and echoed the Chinese junk talk and all the problems his many customers have had over the years with these cheap Chinese pumps, that said it all for me. It still is a personal decision, and you make yours and I make mine. I go NOS and wouldn't even think otherwise. What confused me about your comments is your story in our newsletter about searching boneyards to find a date coded voltage regulator for that same car and then rebuilding it. Granted it didn't cost that much but still I thought you wanted everything correct on your 68 Bird? Bottom line is, we agree to disagree about these pumps!! That is all I will say on the subject!!

[DaleO]

I have a new experience for me. Pulling into the driveway after a cruise I started smelling gas so I parked in the garage and shut down for the day. A couple days later I went to look things over thinking I'd find a leak at the on-line filter or stuck float at least something obvious. I didn't see anything so started up and oh no shut it off noooww as it was spraying from somewhere. After shutting off and having a good look from underneath the steering box was wet and there was a puddle of gas on the floor under the pump. I still didn't know where it was coming from but it was dripping from off the bottom of the pump. I made sure the to carb line was tight at the pump and at a loss I turned the engine over a couple times (with 12V power switched off to HEI) and went back underneath to see what I could and there it was, gas was coming out the seam of the carb body and running down onto the floor. Thank God for no fire, we'd be talking the house too. It wasn't to the headers yet.

I've been running this pump for a couple years now. It is a Carter M4684. A RobbMC has been on my list to do and it has moved to the front of the line now.

Be carefull out there.
-dale

[chrisp]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

Not to keep beating a dead pump, but, I found something interesting that I should share with anyone needing one of these. I noticed that just after 100 miles or so, the cam contact point on the top of the arm looked excessively worn. Comparing this Chinesium pump to an original Delco big can I have sitting here, the arms have different shapes as they come out of the pump. The problem with the newer pumps with this arm shape appear to be that the arm goes higher by 1/4" at the cam contact point. This probably maxes out the travel of that arm and causes them to break.

Note that the RobbMc pump looks to have the original Delco style arm, as does this old Holley I have here. Not sure where or when this new arm design came into play.

See pics below.

Any mark on timing chain side of arm , had a buddys that double row chain would touch arm only in down position & wore a 0.20 groove in side of arm.

[rohrt]

This whole Fuel pump thing is frustrating.

I went with the M6907 pump on my 455 with a Cliff-er-ized 68 Q-jet. I have had one or two occasions where it was flooding over. It seemed to self correct on its own. And I still notice nose over issues on hard acceleration. I wanted a more stock look to the car, thus the reason for the carter pump. I also have 1/2 line and RobbMc Fuel 1/2 sending unit. However the more I think on it the more I don't want to live with either of these issues.

So it either the RobbMc pump or Tanks Inc for me. But If I go to the work of installing a Tanks Inc then I might as well just install a FiTech or Sniper unit.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by rohrt

This whole Fuel pump thing is frustrating.

I went with the M6907 pump on my 455 with a Cliff-er-ized 68 Q-jet. I have had one or two occasions where it was flooding over. It seemed to self correct on its own. And I still notice nose over issues on hard acceleration. I wanted a more stock look to the car, thus the reason for the carter pump. I also have 1/2 line and RobbMc Fuel 1/2 sending unit. However the more I think on it the more I don't want to live with either of these issues.

So it either the RobbMc pump or Tanks Inc for me. But If I go to the work of installing a Tanks Inc then I might as well just install a FiTech or Sniper unit.

If you were inclined to do that, it would be the right time.

With a proper bypass regulator involved in the install, you don't necessarily have to though. If your car runs well and you're not having issues with the carb, getting the fuel system sorted may provide the reliability and drivability you want while retaining the carburetor.

You can always add EFI (throttle body or port injection) later on if you desire.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by rohrt

This whole Fuel pump thing is frustrating.

I went with the M6907 pump on my 455 with a Cliff-er-ized 68 Q-jet. I have had one or two occasions where it was flooding over. It seemed to self correct on its own. And I still notice nose over issues on hard acceleration. I wanted a more stock look to the car, thus the reason for the carter pump. I also have 1/2 line and RobbMc Fuel 1/2 sending unit. However the more I think on it the more I don't want to live with either of these issues.

So it either the RobbMc pump or Tanks Inc for me. But If I go to the work of installing a Tanks Inc then I might as well just install a FiTech or Sniper unit.

I set up the tanks inc stuff with an aeromotive 13301 regulator that comes with a simple EFI spring to swap in if you desire. So it does both carb and EFI. I've run them this way for many years with a carb and it's rock solid. When/if you decide to go EFI, swap the spring and you now have a fuel system that'll supply 60psi, without touching anything else.

[rolling money pits]

Is this an option-

Running a carb….in tank pump, using one of those LS or whatever fuel filters that internally regulate to 50 some odd psi, but have the return built into the filter itself, then deadhead the line to the carb with another regulator?

One fuel line running length of the car as opposed to two, deadheaded, but the fuel still has a return.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by rolling money pits

Is this an option-

Running a carb….in tank pump, using one of those LS or whatever fuel filters that internally regulate to 50 some odd psi, but have the return built into the filter itself, then deadhead the line to the carb with another regulator?

One fuel line running length of the car as opposed to two, deadheaded, but the fuel still has a return.

That's not the way a pressure regulator works. The regulator receives a mass flow of fluid that it then bypasses to a return at enough quantity to create the desired line pressure on it's outlet.

To get the desired outcome you'd have to run another return line from the regulator, defeating the purpose of running the "Corvette style" return regulator/filter.

You want two filters in your fuel system. Typically a sock type or large element 100 micron filter in front of the pump. Typically a sock for in-tank and a 100 micron filter if external fuel pump. You then want a 10 micron filter before the regulator.

If you want to do the deadhead style system, you can still do the bypass regulator back near the tank, with a 10 micron filter in front of it, then run your dead head line to the engine.

[jhein]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

Looks like I'm going with a Robb Mc. Called them and they said there is a backlog and will be at least 4 weeks to get one out. I would like to be able to at least move the car before then and have a few options with questions.

1) I see that Spectra out of Canada has a pump available, MP1151SP. Does anyone know if they make their own stuff or if this is just another reboxed China pump?

2) Found a Korea made Carter on Ebay? It looks like the one that survived on my car for 23 years. Anyone know if these are actually better than the airtex Chinese ones?

3) I think I could rig up that Holley I have. I took it apart and the diaphragm looks good. The seal for the bottom cap looks a little suspect though, see pics. Anyone know what material that is, or I could use to make a new one?

I used the pump listed on this page from BOP (you have to scroll down):

https://www.bopengineering.com/A_Pon...ooling_1.shtml

I could dig it up and send it to you if you want. I replaced it with a RobbMc because I was running out of fuel with my combo. If you have a stock-ish motor it should be adequate, especially if it's just temporary until you get the RobbMc pump.

[glenn911]

I have a carter M6122 new in box from 2014. Says made in USA. I think I bought it for a '78 TA I had but never used it. It will not fit my '74 TA due to the line locations.

[chrisp]

All Carten now in China , Amazon has USA older stock avail, got a few 6907s USA $65.00 & 6122 $25.00