[Formulajones]

Are you speaking from a viscosity stand point or an oil additive package standpoint??

[78w72]

without getting into a pissing match on cold pour ratings of oil, & i do agree some synthetics have better cold pour than thinner conventional oils but, need to remember that cold pour is just a test not really related to what goes on inside an engine, there is no gravity pouring.

an engine pumps oil & through very tight clearances & is only cold for a few minutes, the rest of operation is done at hot temps & viscosity is viscosity regardless of how the oil pours out of the bottle when cold, meaning a 20/50 viscosity is still a 50w oil at operating temps & that is what matters based on how the engine is built... if its built tight to street type specs, there is no real benefit to using a thick oil like 20/50 in teh majority of "street" engines, especially in the colder climates.

& ive mentioned it before but most people are still hung up on the level of zddp, but modern oils use a improved version of zddp that lasts longer, zddp is a sacrificial additive that breaks down as its used up, an advanced version that lasts longer does not need crazy high levels like older oils did... plus modern oils use other anti wear additives to compensate for lower zddp levels like moly. its a fact that oil doesnt need the old high levels to do the job for stock to mild cams. & the OP's cam is rather mild & broken in.

also, mobil may suggest those oils for FT cams... but "what" FT cams? huge .550+ lift race type cams with heavy springs? or stock to mild cams? theres a big difference & fact is most smaller "street" cams do not need that high of zddp.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by 78w72

also, mobil may suggest those oils for FT cams... but "what" FT cams? huge .550+ lift race type cams with heavy springs? or stock to mild cams? theres a big difference & fact is most smaller "street" cams do not need that high of zddp.

That's a point I don't think has been mentioned, or if it has I didn't read it.

These days most of these old cars running around have rebuilt engines and aftermarket camshafts. Even mild flat tappet cams today require as much as 130-135 lbs. seat pressure for proper valve train control. Especially Pontiacs with their 30 degree seat angles. I'm running 130 lbs. even on my very tame 068 cam.
Plus all the other high pressure, high wear areas in the engine. Pushrods, rockers, piston skirts. So I like and prefer the added protection certain oils provide. Plus I've sent in EOS samples in the past which tells me exactly how the engine is doing in terms of oil protection, wear and maintenance, so I'm happy spending a little more on a good oil/filter package.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's a point I don't think has been mentioned, or if it has I didn't read it.

These days most of these old cars running around have rebuilt engines and aftermarket camshafts. Even mild flat tappet cams today require as much as 130-135 lbs. seat pressure for proper valve train control. Especially Pontiacs with their 30 degree seat angles. I'm running 130 lbs. even on my very tame 068 cam.
Plus all the other high pressure, high wear areas in the engine. Pushrods, rockers, piston skirts. So I like and prefer the added protection certain oils provide. Plus I've sent in EOS samples in the past which tells me exactly how the engine is doing in terms of oil protection, wear and maintenance, so I'm happy spending a little more on a good oil/filter package.

yeah the advertising statement mobil makes is rather vague, they dont say what size of cam, is it for ALL FT cams or just big FT cams? kind of stupid to think you need 1200+ppm zddp for a stock cam or 068 or an average RV cam or even ones like i run in lower HP street motors with all of .480 lift & lower 200's .050 durations.

sending in oil analysis samples is a great way to determine what the engine is doing, but looking at virgin analysis will show that almost all modern oils have 800-900ppm zddp & with the other extreme pressure additives, they are fine for most of the cams we mention in this section.

nothing wrong with using the oil you prefer, i doubt any modern oil will make an engine blow up or a mild cam to fail if broken in right. reading comments from lots of guys on here that used "regular" oil or maybe a diesel oil for 20+ years with no issues indicates the oil hype & myths are just that. i also agree with cliff & others that have mentioned that most cam/lifter failures are due to cheap china metals used or user error during break in.

[Formulajones]

Wouldn't you like to know how the engine is doing with a particular oil though? Not curious at all??
Is 1200 ppm enough? Does it need that much? How do things look with 800 or 900 ppm?

I think very few people have actually went through the trouble and just use what they feel works. That's fine too.

I wonder how many people that claim their engines have been fine for 20 years actually drive their cars 10,000+ miles a year. I'm going to guess most here are lucky to put 2,000 miles a year on their classics. In which case I don't think it matters what oil they use, the engine will probably go 20 years without complaint. If I drove them that little I probably wouldn't much care either. At that rate and my age, I likely wouldn't need another rebuild anyway, lol.

We daily drive ours. I'm willing to bet I could count on one hand (maybe 2) the amount of people here that actually use a classic for daily transportation. We've put over 30k miles on our 69Z in the last 3 years alone since I put it back on the road, not including the others we use.

I'm not being argumentative, just curious and putting things in perspective. I'd really like to see an oil sample. I'd like to see more classics on the road more often too but that's just the old school in me.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Wouldn't you like to know how the engine is doing with a particular oil though? Not curious at all??
Is 1200 ppm enough? Does it need that much? How do things look with 800 or 900 ppm?

I think very few people have actually went through the trouble and just use what they feel works. That's fine too.

I wonder how many people that claim their engines have been fine for 20 years actually drive their cars 10,000+ miles a year. I'm going to guess most here are lucky to put 2,000 miles a year on their classics. In which case I don't think it matters what oil they use, the engine will probably go 20 years without complaint. If I drove them that little I probably wouldn't much care either. At that rate and my age, I likely wouldn't need another rebuild anyway, lol.

We daily drive ours. I'm willing to bet I could count on one hand (maybe 2) the amount of people here that actually use a classic for daily transportation. We've put over 30k miles on our 69Z in the last 3 years alone since I put it back on the road, not including the others we use.

I'm not being argumentative, just curious and putting things in perspective. I'd really like to see an oil sample. I'd like to see more classics on the road more often too but that's just the old school in me.

i agree sending in samples is a great way to know the health of the engine, but oil samples wont really tell you if 1200 zddp is enough or too much etc, it just shows the additive levels or if there is coolant in the oil or excessive fuel due to blow by etc. they cant tell you if your cam needs this much or that much zddp. oil samples have their purpose & was mainly for high mileage OTR trucks or fleet vehicles to see how their engines are doing for needing maintenance or for the few passenger car guys that want to know the things sample testing will show.

i also agree not many use their classics for daily driving, & for those that own more than one classic its hard to put that many miles on multiple cars, i have a hard time getting more than 2000 mmiles/year on 3 cars i own, just not practical to daily drive them to the grocery store or to get home & yard supplies etc, plus i dont know about you but i will NOT leave my classic car in a walmart parking lot or at a movie for a couple hours unattended! but even with ~2000 miles/year after a few years that mileage adds up quick, add in drag strip time & being driven hard on the street etc, if a cam were to fail due to oil, it would happen much sooner than later. & ive owned most my cars for 15-20 years, one is still original engine 301T, after 40 years the cam/lifter is running great with common oils. also you can drive year round in arizona & other warm climates... us midwestern, eastern & northern guys are lucky to get 6 months of driving & car show weather.

another point i mention a lot that gets avoided as far as mileage is the millions of stock daily driver cars that are or were recently on the roads with FT cams... using whatever oil was on sale or no concern for zddp levels... i just sold a jeep cherokee 4.0 that was my daily, i put 100k+ miles on that over the 10+ years i owned it & used whatever oil was cheapest within reason, meaning walmart supertech or a on sale havoline or valvoline etc... the cam/lifters were perfectly fine for the entire time & its still running around today. so the amount of miles isnt really the factor in how well a common modern oil can support a stock to mild FT cam. oils today are backwards compatible & even the current SN rated oils state they are compatible for SL & SM rated oils. personally i have no doubt that major oil companies know what they are making & would not makes statements like that if current oils were causing catastrophic failures in FT cams. im not aware of any cam/lifter failures that can be proven it was the oils fault, just too many variables to make that claim.

not trying to be argumentative either, these oil threads can go way off topic sometimes, i just wanted to reply to the cold pour & zddp levels thing & the advertising jargon that some oil companies are latching onto lately.

[Formulajones]

EOS will give you ferrous and non ferrous metals in ppm to give you an idea of a trouble area. What I was getting at is that ZDDP or what ever protection someone is looking for, can then determine if the amount is satisfactory, if it even makes a difference at all. You could raise or lower that amount with different oils and monitor with EOS and see if those ferrous or non ferrous metal counts change. That's what I was hinting at and why I like to test.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/serv...rt-explanation

I don't buy into the theory of the amount of miles not making a difference on flat tappet stuff. Certainly may be fine on a 4.0 jeep that is lucky to have 70 lbs. of seat pressure and I've been there and done that with our own Jeeps. But that's not something I'll do on a daily driven classic that runs well over 100lbs. seat pressure, especially as expensive as it is to build these engines today. You're right about too many variables to claim one way or the other, and we never truly get all the facts when something does happen. Sure would be nice to at least have EOS samples to start with though. Can't rule anything out until facts are presented and in most cases, they all aren't put on the table.

Yep we drive them, to the store, whatever. Wife drives the Z to work daily. Was at Walmart last week. Just yesterday I took it to Ace hardware and bought a shovel and 3 bags of mulch. Then went back out to best buy later to pick up some computer hardware. We find them very practical for day to day errands. Just as much as everyone did when they were new.

When we lived in Ohio I still drove classics daily. In the winter time I simply resorted to driving a V8 Monza or Vega until it rusted away, then went out West and bought another one, lol. Saves the nice stuff that way for the summer driving.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

EOS will give you ferrous and non ferrous metals in ppm to give you an idea of a trouble area. What I was getting at is that ZDDP or what ever protection someone is looking for, can then determine if the amount is satisfactory, if it even makes a difference at all. You could raise or lower that amount with different oils and monitor with EOS and see if those ferrous or non ferrous metal counts change. That's what I was hinting at and why I like to test.

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/serv...rt-explanation

I don't buy into the theory of the amount of miles not making a difference on flat tappet stuff. Certainly may be fine on a 4.0 jeep that is lucky to have 70 lbs. of seat pressure and I've been there and done that with our own Jeeps. But that's not something I'll do on a daily driven classic that runs well over 100lbs. seat pressure, especially as expensive as it is to build these engines today. You're right about too many variables to claim one way or the other, and we never truly get all the facts when something does happen. Sure would be nice to at least have EOS samples to start with though. Can't rule anything out until facts are presented and in most cases, they all aren't put on the table.

Yep we drive them, to the store, whatever. Wife drives the Z to work daily. Was at Walmart last week. Just yesterday I took it to Ace hardware and bought a shovel and 3 bags of mulch. Then went back out to best buy later to pick up some computer hardware. We find them very practical for day to day errands. Just as much as everyone did when they were new.

When we lived in Ohio I still drove classics daily. In the winter time I simply resorted to driving a V8 Monza or Vega until it rusted away, then went out West and bought another one, lol. Saves the nice stuff that way for the summer driving.

yes oil analysis will show metals, but how do they/you know what part of the engine is causing that? worn cylinder walls or rings etc will show the same as cam/lifter metals, bearing material is identifiable but you cant tell what part is wearing for iron content, need to inspect the cam or other parts to determine how they are wearing. so my point is sample testing is great no doubt, but cant tell you how much zddp you need for any given cam.

& keep in mind that by daily driver i mean stock or very mild cams, even stock pontiac or other makes are still very light springs & small lift numbers that simply do not need 1000+ ppm of zddp let alone 1200-1300 like the specialty oils have. plus the fact that modern oils have advanced zddp & other additives... stock & mild cams dont need the high numbers of older oils.

thats great that you daily drive them, but that is not the norm for most classic car owners, how many time do you hear about stolen classics? these older cars are just too easy to break in to & steal, not to mention get door dings from idiots that park too close or dont care about other peoples property, just not worth the risk for me. i have & do take them some places, just not like i do a true daily driver & i think that is the norm, very rare do you see a 40-50 year old nice car at the average store or other similar locations, they are saved for car shows or cruises etc. not to mention the gas mileage of most classic v8's compared to modern FI smaller engines.

& driving a run of the mill monza in the winter is far from a $20k+ classic car, my point was its hard to put the miles on a car that isnt driven year round. but thats cool that you did that in the winter, it is very rare to find those types of cars today so us non desert guys use beaters for winter or drive our dailys.

[Formulajones]

The idea was to drive a classic in the winter, not necessarily an expensive one. I do at least have a head on my shoulders, I never subjected the good cars to the salty roads lol, which was the purpose of buying the little vegas and monzas, they were cheap at the time and still an old car. But we don't care for new cars much anymore and it's actually my wife that prefers carbs and points. Now in Arizona I don't need to worry about the seasons.

No it's not the norm, which is why I tend to take peoples opinions and comments about what works and what's durable in these classics a bit half heartedly. There are very few people in here that test and put the miles on these cars that I do. Cliff is probably one I can name off the top of my head, and maybe a couple others.

The ones we drive actually do well on mileage. With proper tuning these cars are actually pretty efficient. The Z, with it's 780 holley and 4 speed would get 14 around town and 17 highway. When I installed the TKO600 it jumped to 15 around town and 21 highway. It's a pleasure to take on a road trip.

The 70 Formula I drive gets about 13 around town and between 16-17 highway, with no overdrive in it. So it's not bad by any means and a nice cruiser. Both of them are better than most trucks and SUV's on the roads today.
But it's really more about the enjoyment. I'm getting too old to just look at them sitting in the garage anymore.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The idea was to drive a classic in the winter, not necessarily an expensive one. I do at least have a head on my shoulders, I never subjected the good cars to the salty roads lol, which was the purpose of buying the little vegas and monzas, they were cheap at the time and still an old car. But we don't care for new cars much anymore and it's actually my wife that prefers carbs and points. Now in Arizona I don't need to worry about the seasons.

No it's not the norm, which is why I tend to take peoples opinions and comments about what works and what's durable in these classics a bit half heartedly. There are very few people in here that test and put the miles on these cars that I do. Cliff is probably one I can name off the top of my head, and maybe a couple others.

The ones we drive actually do well on mileage. With proper tuning these cars are actually pretty efficient. The Z, with it's 780 holley and 4 speed would get 14 around town and 17 highway. When I installed the TKO600 it jumped to 15 around town and 21 highway. It's a pleasure to take on a road trip.

The 70 Formula I drive gets about 13 around town and between 16-17 highway, with no overdrive in it. So it's not bad by any means and a nice cruiser. Both of them are better than most trucks and SUV's on the roads today.
But it's really more about the enjoyment. I'm getting too old to just look at them sitting in the garage anymore.

i understand about the miles most people drive their cars compared to your situation. when i used to own 1 or maybe 2 classics i would put 2k-4k miles on each season, when i was younger 2-3 times that much.

i get about the same MPG as your 70formula with a 78 400 4speed & 3.42 gears, not terrible on the highway but a little too high rpms at 65+mph for any amount of time. 81 T/a gets a little better but its a small engine with 3.08's. haven't really calculated mpg for the 467 with 3.23 but should be mid teens also which is pretty good for a big carb'd v8. my current 4runner SUV with a 4.0 v6 gets 21+ mph hwy & 18-19 city, cars are getting upper 20's to 30's mpg, for the majority of average drivers that is a huge difference for mpg being a factor of daily driving a classic v8.

i would love to daily drive any of my cars or more often in general, with gas so low i plan to take advantage of it this year!

[Formulajones]

Out here in AZ primarily you see big trucks and large SUV's used as transportation. Lots of ranches out here, horses, trailers and campers. That's probably a good 70% of what's on the roads from my observations, so I think I have most beat in the mileage department
I get those questions from time to time at the pumps and people are always surprised an old car can do that well on gas. Seems most have this misconception that every old car is a gas hog and lucky to see anything over single digits.

We've been doing it for so many years that I think we've just gotten used to it. Mileage doesn't really phase me. Mid to upper teens I'm happy with. 21 out of the Camaro when I shoved the 5 speed in was a little unexpected, but pleasantly surprised. 91 octane here has dropped to $2.39 a gallon, which is the cheapest I've paid for that in about 25 years. So that's kind of nice, but I don't want to get used to it, I'm sure they'll climb back up to the usual $3.30 a gallon before long.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"When flat-tappet cams started failing prematurely--twenty years ago or more--Cam companies were quick to blame the oil instead of their use of junk Communist Chinese cam cores and lifters. If they could blame the oil, they had an excuse to deny warranty coverage; and it hid the fact that they were selling substandard product."

EXACTLY.

The entire fiasco was nothing more than outsourcing and the good lifter companies here not being able to keep up with production and stay in business.

All sort of debates raged on about why we started seeing so many lifter failures. Improper "break-in" procedures, not removing inner springs, not using good break-in lubricants, etc, etc. It's low quality junk lifters for the most part. Some companies may also be using soft cores.

Right around 2003-2004 a very good friend and one of the best and most meticulous engine builder I know built a W-30 455 Oldsmobile engine. I did the carb for it. Before it had 15 minutes on it running 1500rpm to "break-in" the cam it has chewed over half the lobes off the cam and was sounding like a thrashing machine!

It pumped tons of ground of iron thru the engine requiring it to be removed and rebuilt again.

The cam he put in the engine was a Comp XE274 with their lifters. He had never used a Comp XE cam previously but was somewhat "old school" and liked their "Magnum" series cams and had never had an issue with one.

Anyhow, since he did EVERYTHING right with the XE cam, used their lube, the best high performance lube oil out there, it roared to life instantly, correct spring pressures, and kept it at 1500rpm's the entire time with 60psi oil pressure the ONLY way it ate the cam and lifters up was because they were JUNK right to start with......IMHO.....

Glad you weighed in on this subject Cliff. The "soft" camshaft debate continues and has been a subject hashed over for years. I've read many comments from metallurgists on this subject as well and they generally agree camshafts and lifters today are made of inferior metals. I believe the last USA camshaft company was Crane and they sold out years ago. You see flat tappet camshafts selling for under $200 now and you can guess as to the hardness of the metal. People buy these camshafts because they are cheap as are the Edelbrock carbs you have commented on in the past. Cheap many times is not good and the service life of these products is a fraction of what it once was. Since most engines are put together with these inferior parts today, you would hate to buy a complete engine from someone without tearing it down. I believe a combination of less zinc in the oils and soft camshafts/lifters has contributed to premature failures. Back in the 70's and 80's you could buy quality parts in this country and knew they would last. Today that in not the case and it is very sad.

[avman]

I still use Valvoline VR1 in my flat tappet 440.
The Pontiac 421 used to use the VR1 as well, but I've switched to white bottle Valvoline now that it has a roller cam.
Next up is going to be a synthetic, now that it is broken in.