[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

Engine noises, hard restart when hot

To be expected when you deep fry engine internals at 400°f with 10W30 engine oil.

Post #433 for reference
Clay

We have been discussing using straight 30-40 wt oil. "What is your theory"? We are "not" cooked, if that is what you are thinking. However, this has become a new Engine, one that I need to re-educate myself with, one with a new personality. This Motor, with all the changes that I made over the years, has a split personality, like my ex-girlfriend, that was a Paranoid schizophrenic, that I met in a Bar. I went out with her for a year and a half, it was like having two girlfriends at once, one I loved and the other I hated. The two only looked alike, twins like myself. Ya, there are two of me, Ha...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

...

Mikes reply:

You will never admit it, that Amsoil Bor-axed you, built up their product with bull. The first word I learned in sales and you won't find it in the Dictionary, it's one of those words that are Business specific to that field. The man that told me that word Bor-axed me.

You could say that I nailed it on the head, didn't I? I am in sales and I learned a long time ago, from a sales rep, He said "if you can't win them over with brilliance baffle them with bull ****.

Personally, since than I have learned to Educate the customer with the truth and know your product better than the competition knows there's. You only have one chance to sell them a Boat, because if I don't a better sales rep. will close the deal and there goes Mikes commission.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

A little information about an ill-fated Ford engine build causes confusion here? You are kidding right?

We're right in the middle of messing with the distributor (that was probably better suited for your needs BEFORE you tried getting all the advance in early in the RPM range) tune and trying to find out what the engine will tolerate for octane, etc, and you put up a WAY too long completely useless and unrelated thread about the flushing engines using fluid that was designed to be used in hydraulic systems......SERIOUSLY?

If I ready it correctly, we're now back to running upwards of 200 something degrees and stalling out in traffic requiring a 15-minute cool down period before the engine could be restarted, AND the entire time your companion is having to direct traffic around you.

Talking about "confused", I'm not getting any of it, especially the part about the temps showing well over 200 degrees but the gauge can't be trusted because you believe it's about 30 degrees off?

Not to mention you are back to wanting to move the cam again? Not for nothing but I've never seen a four "notch" timing chain set. Have seen three (they are all pieces of bovine excrement) and the much better 9 keyway variety with heat treated billet sprockets, but a "four way" type, who made it?.........

WELCOME TO MY WORLD, DOE'S THIS STUFF HAPPEN TO YOU OTHER PY FORUM MEMBERS OR AM I JUST THE LUCKY ONE?


New curve: 6 degrees BTDC., Vacuum Advance is connected. 11/12 23

Note: The problem, after a sudden stop coming off the Highway @ 70 MPH, we had to wait 15 min. to restart. Then Mike reasoned that it is possible that the lower Hose is supposed to have a metal coil spring in it to keep it from collapsing. Lou, said that it is missing, perhaps it dissolved over the years or he forgot to put it back in, he can't remember. Secondly, the Cap on the Radiator can still be an issue.

When he was in the middle of getting these timing numbers, he found that both the Hoses were collapsed at once. We are pulling the lower Hose, so we can verify the spring presence or not. We can match the lower hose up at Advance Auto or just order the correct one online. I'm thinking about buying a new Radiator Cap as well. Sounds like Tom was right when he said that something else is going on here and others possibly thought the same thing. The sogga continues...

Looks like this:
RPM's HG Degrees
(1)650-700 9 6
(2)1000 13 18
(3)1250 14 26
(4)1500 16 30
(5)1750 18 34
(6)2000 20 38
(7)2250 21 40
(8)2500 22 40
(9)3000 22 40

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

WELCOME TO MY WORLD, DOE'S THIS STUFF HAPPEN TO YOU OTHER PY FORUM MEMBERS OR AM I JUST THE LUCKY ONE?


New curve: 6 degrees BTDC., Vacuum Advance is connected. 11/12 23

Note: The problem, after a sudden stop coming off the Highway @ 70 MPH, we had to wait 15 min. to restart. Then Mike reasoned that it is possible that the lower Hose is supposed to have a metal coil spring in it to keep it from collapsing. Lou said that it is missing, perhaps it dissolved over the years or he forgot to put it back in, he can't remember. Secondly, the Cap on the Radiator can still be an issue.

When he was in the middle of getting these timing numbers, he found that both the Hoses were collapsed at once. We are pulling the lower Hose, so we can verify the spring presence or not. We can match the lower hose up at Advance Auto or just order the correct one online. I'm thinking about buying a new Radiator Cap as well. Sounds like Tom was right when he said that something else is going on here and others possibly thought the same thing. The sogga continues...

Looks like this:
RPM's HG Degrees
(1)650-700 9 6
(2)1000 13 18
(3)1250 14 26
(4)1500 16 30
(5)1750 18 34
(6)2000 20 38
(7)2250 21 40
(8)2500 22 40
(9)3000 22 40

Note: Cliff, I am struggling and frustrated with this car, no offense, sorry about any misunderstanding, just bad luck after bad luck, with this Vehicle. I am getting burnt out trying so hard for the last two years, only to feel like I just started this project all over again ten years ago, especially with this temp. crap.

Note: With the Vacuum advance hooked up, All-in @ 2500 RPM @ 40* and 22" HG. We are @ 6* initial BTDC.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

The first thing I would like to know if you have not checked it yet and posted the results of such yet for us (and for your records) would be what your hot cranking compression readings are.

Just for the record this is done with the Dizzy unpowered so it can’t throw a spark, all the plugs out and the carb jammed wide open.

Has this been posted already?
Forgive me but I do not want to look back for it.

I took the compression tests 10 years ago, I have maybe about 7000 miles on this Engine since I took ownership of this second hand [project. I never heard of a hot compression test. We did, however, use oil and no oil in the test. The results were 155 to 165 over the 8 cyl.

Please explain why a hot test is what you suggest I do differ from the cold one both wet and dry. This way I can schedule the test in the near future, I just want to know why? A matter of learning something that I am unfamiliar with.

[Cliff R]

"Note: Cliff, I am struggling and frustrated with this car, no offense, sorry about any misunderstanding, just bad luck after bad luck, with this Vehicle. I am getting burnt out trying so hard for the last two years, only to feel like I just started this project all over again ten years ago, especially with this temp. crap.

Note: With the Vacuum advance hooked up, All-in @ 2500 RPM @ 40* and 22" HG. We are @ 6* initial BTDC."

+2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

I feel your pain and despite being critical of many of the things you've done, If you lived closer I'd have you bring it over and I'd fix it on my nickel. I make a living doing that sort of thing, and still take in charity work here and there when folks just can't figure it out and are ready to quit throwing money at their project and rent a mini excavator to bury it in the back yard instead!

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Note: Cliff, I am struggling and frustrated with this car, no offense, sorry about any misunderstanding, just bad luck after bad luck, with this Vehicle. I am getting burnt out trying so hard for the last two years, only to feel like I just started this project all over again ten years ago, especially with this temp. crap.

Note: With the Vacuum advance hooked up, All-in @ 2500 RPM @ 40* and 22" HG. We are @ 6* initial BTDC."

+2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

I feel your pain and despite being critical of many of the things you've done, if you lived closer, I'd have you bring it over and I'd fix it on my nickel. I make a living doing that sort of thing, and still take in charity work here and there when folks just can't figure it out and are ready to quit throwing money at their project and rent a mini excavator to bury it in the back yard instead!

Mike said:

Ok, cliff, I stepped back and took a breath, how hard can this Cam stuff be? Conquering timing is Know the goal I know I can do it, if I put my mind to it and believe that I can. This is a major step in Mechanics 101, I understand some of it, but not all of it. To put things in order so we can be on the same page, I want to multi task between the Curve that I started with Toms telling me to disconnect the Vacuum advance and start a Curve @ 12 * BTDC., That was too much so we decided to begin at 9 * BTDC. vs. My existing 6 * BTDC. I am going to find and use cut and paste to get all the info. on one page so I can present a decent picture of my 428 ci HO timing Curve today is 11/13/23 Mon.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

TEST #1, Tom said to start at 9 * BTDC.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom S:
Don’t rebuild it yet! Do as I suggested now and see what you actually have!!Tom

Mike reply:

Last night's test and tune in the drive way results:
Once we "disconnected the Vacuum advance", we tried 12* BTDC and it started to Knock @ 2250 RPM's.

We stopped and tried a safer Initial @ 9* BTDC., we had a total of 24*, "All- In" @ 2500 rpm. However, at this new setting we experienced some small knocking between 2500-3000 RPM.

Should we go back one degree at a time and test until the knocking is gone?

Here is the curve:
RPM Degrees BTDC HG
(1) 650-700 9* 10"
(2) 1000 12* 16"
(3) 1250 14* 17"
(4) 1500 16* 20"
(5) 1750 18* 22
(6) 2000 20* 23"
(7) 2250 21* 23"
(8) 2500 24* 23"
(9) 3000 24* 23"

Note: The ambient Temps. During the test was 68* F.

(1) The Radiators Fluid Pressure was raised in the Upper Hose caused by the Radiator Cap with the thermostat built into it, being clogged with some type of debris from the coolant over time. We cleaned the rubber under this Cap well and the Cap, plus the hole to the tube to overflow bottle, while we were there. The fluid can flow to the overflow bottle unobstructed now as well. This may very well be the last cooling problem in this Vehicles cooling system.


(2) The Radiator Cap reads 140* F. Tonight, with the large 110 Squirrel Cage Fan blowing across the front of the Engine, the Hood is open in order to both Time the Motor and to meet actual road test air flow conditions, as if we were moving.
(3) The Temp. gauge in the Vehicle @ the I/P slowly rose to 200* and remained there for the Test results. We can subtract 30* F. from that to get a cool 170* F. actual temp. reading at that time.

By the way my "041" Cam is working well in this Motor and I expect good results when I Rebuild my dist., Perhaps I might try to get one Knotch out of my "041" adjustable Cam timing Chain yet? So, if you can consider that in this next move, I would appreciate it. The four Knotch advance timing Chain and Gears are still under the Water pump and timing cover, each one is 2* at the Crank and one degree at the "041" Cam, I figure we should take advantage of at least one of those advance settings if it is going to make a positive result to the overall timing equation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


TEST # 2, MIKES EXISTING TIMING @ 6 * BTDC.


New curve: 6 degrees BTDC., "Vacuum Advance is connected". 11/12 23

Note: The problem, after a sudden stop coming off the Highway @ 70 MPH, we had to wait 15 min. to restart. Then Mike reasoned that it is possible that the lower Hose is supposed to have a metal coil spring in it to keep it from collapsing. Lou, said that it is missing, perhaps it dissolved over the years or he forgot to put it back in, he can't remember. Secondly, the Cap on the Radiator can still be an issue.

When he was in the middle of getting these timing numbers, he found that both the Hoses were collapsed at once. We are pulling the lower Hose, so we can verify the spring presence or not. We can match the lower hose up at Advance Auto or just order the correct one online. I'm thinking about buying a new Radiator Cap as well. Sounds like Tom was right when he said that something else is going on here and others possibly thought the same thing. The sogga continues...

Looks like this:
RPM's HG Degrees
(1)650-700 9" 6 *
(2)1000 13 18
(3)1250 14 26
(4)1500 16 30
(5)1750 18 34
(6)2000 20 38
(7)2250 21 40
(8)2500 22 40
(9)3000 22 40

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mikes Reply: At the Bottom of this page (Attachment) is the Hot Compression Test That one of the forum members wanted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the next Test: "With the Vacuum Advance disconnected".


Looks like this:
RPM's HG Degrees
(1)650-700 8" 8*
(2)1000 9 10
(3)1250 12 13
(4)1500 14 15
(5)1750 16 21
(6)2000 17 25
(7)2250 18 26
(8)2500 18 26
(9)3000 18 26

Note: Initial is 8 * BTDC. @ 700 RPM, 26 degrees @ 2250 RPM All-In.

[Cliff R]

I don't understand the need to mess with the distributor right to start with.

Before making any changes to it I would have taken it apart here, cleaned out the old grease, cleaned up the shaft on the lathe and the advance mechanism. Check the housing for wear at the bushings, replace the rubber sleeve on the advance pin with a stainless steel one, put all the stock parts back on it, new grease, then check to see how much timing it is adding.

I would NOT have used any type of aftermarket advance "kit" and simply started with the stock parts.

Using my degree wheel I'd check to see how much mechanical advance is in the curve before placing it in service. At that point if I wanted to shorten up the curve some it would have been done using the MIG to shorten up the slot the advance pin moves in.

Using precision drill bits I'd measure how much timing the VA was adding, and modify it if/as needed with the MIG.

I will not under any circumstances use any of the aftermarket spring/weight kits or the "adjustable" vacuum advance units. I've found much better results with modified stock VA units and stock distributor weights and springs. I also don't understand the want or need to put a lot of initial timing or all-in timing curve into a distributor headed for a high compression engine on pump gas. That in itself is a recipe for disaster and the best way I know of to put pistons and rod bearings into the oil pan.

What puzzles me in your case is ping or detonation during a no-load test. Are you sure you don't have somthing in the exhaust system leaking, or a pipe or muffler rubbing on something producing a metalic sound during your test?......

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I don't understand the need to mess with the distributor right to start with.

Before making any changes to it I would have taken it apart here, cleaned out the old grease, cleaned up the shaft on the lathe and the advance mechanism. Check the housing for wear at the bushings, replace the rubber sleeve on the advance pin with a stainless steel one, put all the stock parts back on it, new grease, then check to see how much timing it is adding.

I would NOT have used any type of aftermarket advance "kit" and simply started with the stock parts.

Using my degree wheel, I'd check to see how much mechanical advance is in the curve before placing it in service. At that point if I wanted to shorten up the curve some it would have been done using the MIG to shorten up the slot the advance pin moves in.

Using precision drill bits, I'd measure how much timing the VA was adding, and modify it if/as needed with the MIG.

I will not under any circumstances use any of the aftermarket spring/weight kits or the "adjustable" vacuum advance units. I've found much better results with modified stock VA units and stock distributor weights and springs. I also don't understand the want or need to put a lot of initial timing or all-in timing curve into a distributor headed for a high compression engine on pump gas. That in itself is a recipe for disaster and the best way I know of to put pistons and rod bearings into the oil pan.

What puzzles me in your case is ping or detonation during a no-load test. Are you sure you don't have something in the exhaust system leaking, or a pipe or muffler rubbing on something producing a metalic sound during your test?......

Since I am getting acquainted with the various Engine noises lately, I know I am familiar with the sound of the Harmonic Balance, that has a crack in it. Detonation pinging and out of time knocking are recent tones that I am hearing as we Time this Vehicle.

It is "not" even Funny that how in the last 10 years that it took me to get all those Motor anomalies out of this Engine that they are now manifesting their ugly faces in different ways at different times once again.

I have changed so many parts in this Engine, except the lower end and that just happens to work the best, even though it is installed backwards. Providing I get past these current Timing issues this Motor could last some time to come, at least that is my hope. This is a new territory that I am entering into slowly but methodically. One can tell by the outline that I have provided, so that the forum can follow my every problem and react to them one at a time in a scientific way, after all aren't Engines filled with WHYS. This is a critical Time for me that I ask the group help me. Those fast one-line answers are "not" going to get this problem fixed. I can only hope everybody feels the same way as me...HELP.

1/12/23 Test and Tune, 80 degrees F. , 75% humidity. I had 600 RPM in park, at the start. Oil pressure is around 20 psi, it is difficult to read these barely calibrated Gauges in this Vehicle. There are 14.5 AMP's charging power back into the dual batt. and I have a Sudbury Switch in the Trunk. I went to the Bank and I let the Car run while my roommate followed in the Van, just in case with the tools and spare tire and jack, etc... Ran OK @ 190 * actual. We are experiencing some knocking on slight acceleration and as we raise the RPM's up. Why.

The Hose is firm on top to the Radiator but not as much as the other day when the Vehicle made a sudden stop. We went out and purchased a new Radiator Cap, not the one I wanted though, with the Thermostat. Mine has a pop-up lever and it seems to work, it allows us to continue to Test and Tune, I can purchase one later. My limited Reasoning agrees with Cliff to stay with my existing Dist. for now.

Mikes Theory:

Since I am @ the Factory setting of 6 * BTDC. and the advancement of the "041" Cam is at the Zero position, one reason that the Engine is acting different is that it is not the same as I bought it sone 10 years ago, as a matter of fact the only thing that remains the same is the bottom end that we have done nothing to. It is Ironic that all these new timing noises affect the lower area in that the sounds come from there and then stop when you let off the accelerator or you raise the RPM's up at a stop say to just Rev. it up.

If this is out of Tune, I am thinking of setting the "All-In" timing first and letting the Initial fall where it may. I am thinking 37-38 degrees BTDC. for now, since I am @ 40 * BTDC. now. Maybe the initial will end up @ 5* BTDC. This is Simpler Than messing with Toms Settings for now. I have read that the 428 ci Motor likes 38-39 * All-in, so we work our way up the curve slowly...JMO "This will be with the Vacuum hooked up". By the way our dist. has always been strong and we found no problems in the past. However, you mentioned that it could be serviced and we tend to agree, because overlooking that and it being so obvious could be right up the "smart ally" in my Book.

[steve25]

With your posted results from your compression tests and the timing you are now using without any vacuum advance I flat out can't see how you could be having pinging taking place at or near idle.

You must have something mechanical at low cycling rates making the noise you are hearing.

A good possibility to me would be that if the car uses a auto trans that your noise source is a busted flexplate .

Depending on where and how they are cracked I have heard them sound like tight rusted noises bolt being backed out to what as in your case might be sounding like ping, and many times the noise will go away by 1800 to 2200 rpm out of gear.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012

Mikes reply:

You will never admit it, that Amsoil Bor-axed you, built up their product with bull. The first word I learned in sales and you won't find it in the Dictionary, it's one of those words that are Business specific to that field. The man that told me that word Bor-axed me.

You could say that I nailed it on the head, didn't I? I am in sales and I learned a long time ago, from a sales rep, He said "if you can't win them over with brilliance baffle them with bull ****.

Personally, since than I have learned to Educate the customer with the truth and know your product better than the competition knows there's. You only have one chance to sell them a Boat, because if I don't a better sales rep. will close the deal and there goes Mikes commission.

There is no one right or wrong here, just a couple of people with their own opinions. Let's move on. I have much more serious issues to get past, as soon as possible, so I can get out there and Test and Tune this winter. We start getting some very beautiful weather after rainy and Hurricane season passes soon and I want to be on the road by then, thank you for your help. Mike out.

We just bought a new radiator Cap with the flip up handle. Unfortunately, no one had the one with the Thermostat attached to it, why? You would think it is a good seller. I will find it on line later, believe me, Is Mr. Gasket still in business? I need a Power Steering Pump, also we have developed a leak and I wonder if the front seal kit is available, so we can repair our own. It's probably cheaper and faster to just get one online. The last one got warranted by Advance Auto and the replacement has lasted until now. It makes sense to buy their rebuilt product, two for the price of one, is the way that worked out.

[Formulajones]

You dont set your total timing with vacuum hooked up.

What tom and others are trying to explain when doing that is rev the engine until all advance is done and set timing at your total, without vacuum advance. This assures that total timing under wide open throttle doesn't exceed a certain number you're after. Vacuum advance is inop under wide open throttle so it's not a player here.

Most likely 38-39 will be too high for total mechanical timing in a pump gas deal like yours. You may end up more in the 32-34 range.

Only after this is set properly will the vacuum advance be hooked up and dialed in, on top of you total. Usually end up with maybe 10-12 degrees additional that should put you around 44-46 degrees which is only in play at light throttle cruising. With that done your initial should be somewhere around 12 degrees if the distributor is set up properly.

You likely won't come close to hitting these numbers or anything resembling these numbers without modifying the breaker plate and welding things as cliff mentioned.

For this I'd recommend you send the distributor out to a qualified individual.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

With your posted results from your compression tests and the timing you are now using without any vacuum advance I flat out can't see how you could be having pinging taking place at or near idle.

You must have something mechanical at low cycling rates, making the noise you are hearing.

A good possibility to me would be that if the car uses an auto trans. that your noise source is a busted Flex-plate.

Depending on where and how they are cracked I have heard them sound like tight rusted noises bolt being backed out to what as in your case might be sounding like ping, and many times the noise will go away by 1800 to 2200 rpm out of gear.

Very interesting thought, my roommate could/should have seen a problem when he R+R the Trans., one never knows. What if Crack developed Post Build though, that could have happened. We intend on inspecting the inspection cover soon, checking for leaks. Sometimes we get some oil on the exhaust system and it burns off at the stop light. We had an Accident with the Trans. two years ago, sending a shock wave through the Drive Train, linearly from the Trans. to the Harmonic Balancer Hub. It Broke the Torque Converter, Trans., why not the Flexplate it is on line with the rest of those parts to Brake. We will inspect it, thank you. Mike out.

P.S. Does the Flexplate need to be Magna- fluxed for inspection?

[steve25]

All that has to be done to prove out the flexplate being the source of the noise is to remove the bolts that hold the converter to the flexplate then push the converter back towards the trans to give a 1/4" or maybe more clearance.

This will unload the flexplate and if you then start the motor the noise should be gone unless the flexplate is hanging together by a thread.

[Cliff R]

"We are experiencing some knocking on slight acceleration and as we raise the RPM's up. Why?"


Don't want to be the one to remind you but with the pistons in backwards you just might be hearing piston "slap" instead of "ping" or detonation.

Remember I'm the only one who provided a DIRECT example of actually installing 8 pistons in the WRONG direction and running it 10,000 miles before engine noise, oil consumption, and just knowing something was fundamentally WRONG with the engine drove me to remove it and do an inspection. When I discovered than the Hy-Duty 400 SBC pistons were all facing the wrong direction I knew I had found the culprit.

Good damn thing I didn't have the Internet or a Forum to run to with my issues. I might have ran into some "guru's" or self-proclaimed resident experts that would have told me a few old school racers did that move for their Stock Class racing engines WAY back in the day and that it doesn't hurt anything. Far as I'm concerned it's a "wives tale" and NOT a good move at all, since putting them all in the right direction IMMEDIATELY cured ALL the issues I was having with that engine and I went on to run it in my K-5 Blazer nearly 200,000 more miles as that was my main transportation back in those days and I was commuting over 100 miles back and forth to work every day, plus took it to the Outer Banks nearly every weekend surf fishing, and 1200 mile round trips from my duty station back to my home town to visit family half a dozen times a year.

I considered that very costly experience early in my learning curve a good one that I will NEVER repeat.

Bottom line here Mike, no matter what you have heard or been told, factory type pistons with offset pins absolutely MUST be installed in the right direction for a street engine, or there will be noise, and other issues associated with the pistons flopping all around in the bores instead of staying perpendicular to the crankshaft centerline and cylinder bores like the engineers intended for them.......FWIW........

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

With your posted results from your compression tests and the timing you are now using without any vacuum advance I flat out can't see how you could be having pinging taking place at or near idle.

You must have something mechanical at low cycling rates, making the noise you are hearing.

A good possibility to me would be that if the car uses a auto trans that your noise source is a busted flexplate .

Depending on where and how they are cracked I have heard them sound like tight rusted noises bolt being backed out to what as in your case might be sounding like ping, and many times the noise will go away by 1800 to 2200 rpm out of gear.

I have a Th 400 Trans that I just Rebuilt myself and with my roommate. Last night I was stopped at the Gas station and when I raised the accelerator as to Rev. some and the noise rose up with the RPMS. Every time I Reved. it, that happened. The Engine is not Hot either. The sound is that of a knocking sound to me and then when I took off in Gear, under a load, the sound went away. When I drive, I can stay behind the knocking sound or drive through it, I hope that helps.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"We are experiencing some knocking on slight acceleration and as we raise the RPM's up. Why?"


Don't want to be the one to remind you but with the pistons in backwards you just might be hearing piston "slap" instead of "ping" or detonation.

Remember I'm the only one who provided a DIRECT example of actually installing 8 pistons in the WRONG direction and running it 10,000 miles before engine noise, oil consumption, and just knowing something was fundamentally WRONG with the engine drove me to remove it and do an inspection. When I discovered than the Hy-Duty 400 SBC pistons were all facing the wrong direction I knew I had found the culprit.

Good damn thing I didn't have the Internet or a Forum to run to with my issues. I might have ran into some "guru's" or self-proclaimed resident experts that would have told me a few old school racers did that move for their Stock Class racing engines WAY back in the day and that it doesn't hurt anything. Far as I'm concerned it's a "wives tale" and NOT a good move at all, since putting them all in the right direction IMMEDIATELY cured ALL the issues I was having with that engine and I went on to run it in my K-5 Blazer nearly 200,000 more miles as that was my main transportation back in those days and I was commuting over 100 miles back and forth to work every day, plus took it to the Outer Banks nearly every weekend surf fishing, and 1200 mile round trips from my duty station back to my home town to visit family half a dozen times a year.

I considered that very costly experience early in my learning curve a good one that I will NEVER repeat.

Bottom line here Mike, no matter what you have heard or been told, factory type pistons with offset pins absolutely MUST be installed in the right direction for a street engine, or there will be noise, and other issues associated with the pistons flopping all around in the bores instead of staying perpendicular to the crankshaft centerline and cylinder bores like the engineers intended for them.......FWIW........

check OUT POST 516, SOME NEW LIGHT ON THE SUBJECT, the flexPLATE IS DAMAGED, FALLS UNDER THE UMBRELLER ON MY DAMAGES DRIVE SYSTEM, AND YES WE WIIL ADRESS THE BACKWARDS PISTONS , BUT i WOULD BE LYING IF I told you that was my existing problem. However, your diagnostic is viable, you already know why I think otherwise. Sorry I am not writing this over. I have been up 24/7.

[Formulajones]

I'm on the same page as Cliff, if you're hearing some sort of knocking noise while lightly revving the engine with no real load on it, you either have something outside rubbing somewhere, or you're simply hearing piston slap.

That piston issue should have been addressed when you had the engine apart. We could have at least eliminated that scenario at this point, but now as it is, I don't think you're going to get any clear answer or any reasonable solution to your issues. You'll just have to continue to monkey around with the thing and enjoy the experience.

Might help readers here if you posted a video of the noise, give us some live audio.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

All that has to be done to prove out the flexplate being the source of the noise is to remove the bolts that hold the converter to the flexplate then push the converter back towards the trans to give a 1/4" or maybe more clearance.

This will unload the flexplate and if you then start the motor the noise should be gone unless the flexplate is hanging together by a thread.

Have you experienced this type of failure yourself in the past? Your Theory makes sense in my case, I have the AT, just replaced the Hub to the Harmonic Balancer, remanufactured the TH 400 and installed a new Torque Converter. Why not a Flexplate while I am at it?

Here is what happened to me: I drove over an Asphalt Drive way at a friend's new home. The Driveway did not have any cement under it to make the Asphalt flat. A tree root grew under the Asphalt raising the Driveway, I could never have expected this to happen, for it was my first time there. The Accident Broke the drive train and the Trans. lifted up while the Vehicle was moving forward. My Vehicle has been off the roar for close to 3 years fixing it. The Heads are just Remanufactured.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Note: You don't set your Total Timing with vacuum hooked up. "Disconnect the Vacuum advance"

HOW TO SET UP YOUR DIST. WITH ALL-IN TIMING. EXAMPLE:

When you want to make your own "All-in" Timing CURVE, BEGIN WITH Doing this, by revving the engine up until all your advance is at your choice degree (example: 32-34 degrees BTDC.) move to the highest number that the dist. will keep increasing to a higher numeral and then back off some, NOW set the Total Timing of your own choice, your total. This assures that Total Timing, under wide open throttle, doesn't exceed a certain number that you're after. Vacuum Advance is inoperable under wide open throttle, so it's "not" a player here.

Most likely 38-39 will be too high for Total Mechanical Timing in a pump gas deal like yours. You may end up more in the 32-34 * range.

Only after this is set properly will the Vacuum Advance be hooked up and dialed in, on top of your total. Usually, you will end up with maybe 10-12 degrees, additional, that should put you around 44-46 degrees, which is only in play at light throttle cruising. With that done, your initial should be somewhere around 12 degrees, if the distributor is set up properly.

You likely won't come close to hitting these numbers or anything resembling these numbers without modifying the breaker plate and welding things as cliff mentioned.

For this I'd recommend you send the distributor out to a qualified individual.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I Plan on using this Dist. for now, we are now timed:

6* BTDC. Initial @ 700 RPM and 9" HG.

40* BTDC. All-in @ 2250 RPM and 21" HG.

"These settings are with the Vacuum advance Hooked up"

Here is the curve:
RPM Degrees BTDC. HG
(1) 650-700 6 9
(2) 1000 18 13
(3) 1250 26 14
(4) 1500 30 16
(5) 1750 34 18
(6) 2000 38 20
(7) 2250 40 21
(8) 2500 40 22
(9) 3000 40 22



Please modify this message to suit even more than I modified it. The reason is I added and changed your formula by using material in my mind that may not be correct, so you get the final say so. I tried to make this easy to read for the future so that there is no guess work. Mike OUT.