[Tom Vaught]

I was looking on E*ay tonight and saw that a guy was selling a "New in the Wrap" Mile Dial Carb kit for a Holley Carb. Very Proud of his part Wants $399 starting bid for the thing.
Good Luck to that guy. I guess the 7 kits that I have must be worth $2800 if he gets his price. Good Luck Fellow.

That being said I will talk a bit about the system as the guy was nice enough in his listing to have some pictures of the parts.

So the first picture is a picture of the box the kit came in, if you ever see one at a swap meet (they are still out there, maybe not NEW though).

The second picture shows some of the parts you got in the kit:
Two Metering Blocks
Two "Electronic feedback" carb bowls
One Pulse Width Modulated Solenoid Controller.

In the third picture you will see a close-up of the Controller.
It has a knob that adjusts the "Pulse Width" to the Fuel Solenoid from zero setting to 10 steps different from the zero setting. It also has a fixed slide switch that manually allows a fixed setting or a adjustable setting.

In the 4th picture you will see the wiring harness that hooks up to the Controller and the two Fuel Bowl Solenoids. It has a power and ground wire too.
There are directions to explain every step.

In the 5th (last Picture you have a close-up of the bowl and the Feedback Solenoid)

So enough explanation of the pictures.

So the idea was that you could take a Holley carb and change the air/fuel ratio "on the fly" while driving the vehicle, much like you can with a simple Fuel Injection System today.

The range of adjustment was 10 jet sizes. Typically you set the jets in the carb 2 sizes lean and then turned the knob two clicks to the right. Now you were at Stock Jetting for the carb.

So from that point you could add more fuel to the Power Valve System (above the PVCR Power Valve Channel Restriction Jet drillings by turning the knob).

So basically you had a adjustable "on the fly carb controller.

David Vizard, a famous Dyno Guy and writer of quality engine articles used a system in his dyno tuning. made for much fewer jet changes and fuel bowl removal operations.

I knew a Guy who was a "messenger" in the South West of the USA.
He had a dual quad 427 Mustang with two Holley carbs and a 4 solenoid system.
Two controllers. He had one controller for the Primary Bowls and one controller for the secondary bowls.

Why would he do this?

Because he also had a custom valve controlled open exhaust system.
(lots of those units are on the web. Think even PY at one time sold them).

So he opens up the exhaust and the engine goes leaner and then he dials in the high speed calibration into the carbs. He had ego sensors and Thermo-couples (like a dyno engine) on his engine. We are talking a Silver State race type runner but carrying packages at high speed in the desert country. These packages were not drugs but valuable Jewels to Stores where sending them thru normal UPS type mail would never work. And Cheaper vs hiring a Armored Car for the deliveries. (He also carried a pair of very short barrel shotguns).

I wish the guy luck in selling his Mile Dial kit for $399.
I have the Better Quarter Mile Dial Kits that, as I said, feed the fuel into the carb even if the power valve is closed. This is also what Vizard used.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

It has been a while since I posted up any Holley carb Tips.

I ran across this Holley Tip (video) on how to fix a stripped bowl screw thread on a Holley Main Body. The only thing I would do differently would be to put the mainbody on a drill press to drill out the stripped hole for the heli-coil but at a race track the hand drill might be all that you have access to. Enjoy.

https://www.holley.com/blog/holley/4/

It will be in the middle of the page of the 4th page of the blog.

Tom V.

[73 TRANSAM]

I just read this electronic adjustment for a holley and I think that is a nice addition to Blow thru carb. I wish I know how your adding fuel externally on the fly. Thanks Mr Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Here is a link from the Holley book my old Holley Boss wrote that has a lot of good info on the Holley Feed Back Carburetor, the Feed Back Control Solenoid, and pictures of the parts. It also has a cut-away achematic of how the fuel flows from the fuel bowl to the main jet wells and adds additional fuel there (along with the normal flow THRU the MAIN JETS. click on the "https" or the link will not work right.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Cl...ematic&f=false

The page numbers are at the bottom of the pages, (left or right side at the bottom).
You want pages 43 to page 46.

Post up if you have more questions.

The duty cycle solenoid moves up and down based on the control knob and adds fuel based on when the fuel circuit is open from the bowl to the main jet wells.

So you have "fixed" main jets and you can "change" main jetting on the fly by using the feedback solenoid to add the extra fuel that you want. I guy who I have posted about before was a "Messenger" for a bank system before all of the computer stuff.
This means he covertly carried a lot of cash (for a given bank to use in their business) vs using Armored Trucks.
Car was a 427 dual quad 68 Mustang with cable operated Exhaust dumps.

When he was traveling across the desert he could open the exhaust cut-outs and make more power but he also needed more fuel to the engine for the HP/speed he was trying to run. Cool desert air and high speed means larger carb jetting.

The Quarter Mile systems seems to get the job done for him.

Tom V.

ps He also carried two "sawed off double barrel" shotguns in the car to discourage robberies.

[ta man]

That book sits on my nightstand beside my bed.

[Tom Vaught]

Mike Urich, for being a Vice President at Holley (in Warren, Michigan), was a "Real Deal" Holley Carb Expert.

Same can be said for Chuck Gulledge, another Holley Carb Expert, RIP, and Marty Brown, RIP.

More info:

"There was more to it than just the money. To understand, you have to know something about how and why QFT came to be in the first place. The company was started by Marvin Benoit and Marty Brown, both long-time Holley employees and two of the main driving forces behind much of the technological progress Holley made during the 80's and early 90's. In a move that has become almost standard operating procedure at Holley, Marvin and Marty were both handed their pink slips right before their retirement packages were about to vest. Neither of them were the type to take this sitting down, and in true 11th Commandment - "Thou shalt not let the bastards get away with it" form, they started a competing carburetor company. Several other former Holley employees who were also sick of the way Holley was doing business and treating people joined them, and QFT became one of the major players in the industry. Marty Brown passed away several years ago, leaving Marvin Benoit as principle owner.

This is purely my opinion, but I think Marvin Benoit always planned on forcing Holley into the position of having to buy QFT. You have to admit - there is a certain satisfaction that comes with making the same people who used you for years - and then summarily kicked you to the curb when it became financially expedient to do so - bow and kiss the ring. And from the numbers I've heard, yes...he did make sure the price stung a bit for Holley."

The majority of that quote is right on the money.

Tom V.

[73 TRANSAM]

Thanks for the link Mr. Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

ONE OF ONE HOLLEY TRI-POWER FOR A 351-C ENGINE

A gentleman I know from the Indianapolis, Indiana, who later moved down south, asked me some time back to help him with his
"One of a Kind" Holley Tri-Power induction system.

It turns out he has the only surviving 351-C Ford Tri-Power left in the world (with a water cross-over).
I believe this intake system was originally designed for a custom set of heads for a 351-C Pantera.

Here is the link to the EBAY auction.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/183641177514

Because the auctions go away quickly and the pictures will disappear, I will post some pictures for the Thread that can be archived for members and Holley Enthusiasts.

So I will post up the first five pictures in a minute.

He also wrote a description of the intake and mentioned me as doing the work on the system getting it to run properly.

HERE IS THE INFO HE POSTED.

There are no aftermarket tripower set ups for 351C. These less than a dozen on the planet are the ONLY ONES and most are held by collectors. There are 3 men I know, Michael Brattland, Joe Bunetic and Tom Vaught, who are very familiar with these intakes and they believe there are between 10 and 12 in existence. In 1969 and 70 Ford developed the 366 program for NASCAR with an enlarged 351C and the Tri-Power intake. They made 500 of these engines and when submitted to NASCAR they were NOT accepted. Ford ordered them all destroyed. Tom Vaught was later at Ford and was told that a man with a Sledge Hammer spent a week destroying them all.

Somehow 10 or 12 slipped through the cracks. They were all cast by Buddy Barr with his name cast on the underside of the intake. Mine has no casting name of any kind indicating that somone else cast it. With the water passage ( 351C intakes are all dry ) and having been on a stand and tested, makes this "one of one". No one has seen another one like mine. There is a Ford XE152825 experimental serial number cast between two carbs. The number 3 runner has an XE number and the words "assy $ 2" engraved on it with some kind electric pencil. The dollar sign was used instead of the pound sign for expensive options in engineering. The fuel lines are 3/8" polished stainless with black anodized fittings with the polished aluminim distribution block. The carbs were all powder coated and the hardware was black chromed. They are 68 or 69 Mopar 6 pack carbs. They have all been rebuilt with kits direct from Holley The air cleaner uses a 62 or 63 small block Ford tri-power lid and the rest is custom built. It also comes with a set of modified O'Brien Truckers air cleaners. I had the stickers made "351C-6V" to make it look like a factory option. . If you can find one of these ( I looked for 6 years ) they run in the 5 to 6 thousand dollars price range. Because of this being "one of one" and air cleaner, fuel lines and other extras usually not included, I'm asking 8 thousand. It also is well sorted out and running great. Tom Vaught did the "final" (Carb Inspection/ Tune-up) on it. Buyer to pay for shipping and crating. Local pickup is an option.

Because this is a Historical Post on a Pontiac Website, I do not think there will be any issues with posting up the pictures and the EBAY Link.

Tom V. (I have corrected some of the info vs the EBAY Ad.)

Click on the Pics to make larger

[Tom Vaught]

Another 5 Pictures:

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Last ones:

Tom V.

You will notice that the carbs are Vacuum Operated Holley 6-Pack Carbs in some of the Pictures.
Also there is a special Ford Oval Inlet Air Cleaner and the O'Brian Truckers Individual Tri-Power Carb Filter pieces.

[Tom Vaught]

As you can see from the Pictures, the gentleman has his 6-pack carbs Powder Coated so they looked really nice on the intake EXCEPT one of the drive-ability things I had to fix was the people that did the work plugged up one side of each carb's air horn idle air bleeds and high speed bleeds.

Obviously the carbs were not happy with that "MOD".

So if you have carbs ever done that way, make sure that they put "plugs" in the air bleeds. The carbs have Down Leg Boosters so harder to screw that main circuit up.

Really nice one of a kind set-up, I hope he finds a collector who wants that system and he gets his money.

That was the 4th Super Rare Ford Tri-Power Set-up I have done.
One was a Boss 302 Ford System, Two were 429 Super Cobra jet Systems, and now this gentleman's Pantera 351-C system. Lots of info in the TRI-POWER website if you are into Holley Tri-Powers.

Tom V.

[Formulajones]

Wow this thread ballooned. I haven't visited this in a while.

So I haven't read everything Tom but have you touched on modifying things? For instance moving the idle feed restrictors in the meter block from the bottom to the top?

[Tom Vaught]

I and several other Holley Carb Modifiers actually convert the Carbs with the IFRs at the top to the bottom location as it works a lot better.

Holley moved the IFRs to the top because some people had idle issues with the carbs when the 5th hole (lowest was used). so people have 5 holes and if a little emulsion is good, more is better or so they think. So they do the E-hole #1, Plug #2, e-hole #3, plug #4, E-hole #5.

A much better situation is to Plug 1,3, and 5 holes and use #2 and #4 emulsion position holes (like the old metering blocks had), and move the IFRS BACK DOWN TO THE ORIGINAL POSITION AT THE BOTTOM OF THE METERING BLOCK VS THE TOP POSITION.

So that is why I have not posted on that "mod" because I only recommend things that actually work like they are supposed to work.

The old 2 hole emulsion metering blocks work great as does the low position IFRs except they are not pretty like billet 5 holes $$$ metering blocks that the NASCAR guys use for a specific reason. Fuel Mileage.

Tom V.

I worked on a NASCAR carb one time that had 10 Emulsion holes in a single metering block.

[Formulajones]

Ooops sorry, I was speaking of the old 2 emulsion hole metering blocks.

I move it to the top on some occasions where the IFR's are too big. So it's much easier to just remove the lower brass plugs all together and tap the upper hole with a 6/32 tap and install a brass allen set screw and then drill to the size needed.

There is debate on the benefits of this, for instance one debate is that some say the idle fuel atomizes better from the top hole. But that's not why I do it.

I mainly do this modification to provide me with adjustability with the idle feed restrictors without the need for the expensive 5 hole emulsion blocks, and to save the hard to find numbers matching metering blocks on some of these original carbs.

[Tom Vaught]

Easy is not necessarily the best way to do things.

I do not use metering blocks with 3 holes/4 holes 5 holes (even though I do have several sets of metering blocks Holley did for Keith Dorton for the 350 cfm 2-BBL circle track carbs many years ago). Here is a link to the metering block info:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp...etering-block/

After Dorton/Holley came out with the first Tuneable Metering Blocks, everyone jumped on the band wagon.

You do what you want, Formulajones, It is your carbs.
So how big are these "IFR's are too big)?

Typical 850 cfm carbs have plenty of idle fuel without large IFRs with 4 corner idle systems (in the lower position). We even move the IFRs down on Dominator Carbs.

You might want to read this whole thread: http://www.motorsportsvillage.com/fo...php?f=6&t=9717

I have posted info in that thread years ago and Tuner and others specifically talk about 2 hole Emulsion Metering Blocks and the PROPER LOCATION (lower position) for the IFRs. Or you can just do what you have been doing in the past.

Tom V.

[Formulajones]

There's reasons for doing it.

The first problem is when you get into these factory part numbered carbs, date codes, like DZ holley carbs, L78 holley carbs, CJ holley carbs etc... these things can run upwards of $2500 and still need refurbished. You want things like the correct part number meter blocks and associated parts to start with.

The second problem is that these parts are 50+ years old and no telling how many hands have been in it. So I check things like passages, metered orifices etc...and often times I find that things have been drilled above factory specs from hot rodders. Not so easy to go backwards once that happens.

Idle feed restrictors for instance, when too big, causes the mixture screw to be way over sensitive to the point they can't be out more than a 1/4 turn or there is an overly rich idle condition. In these cases the IFR needs to be reduced. In a case where they have been drilled too large the best solution to save a hard to find meter block is to remove that brass insert, tap the upper hole and install a brass set screw and drill accordingly like I mentioned above. This saves an otherwise perfectly fine and rare meter block.

This is the biggest reason for the change. There are plenty of 40+ year holley carb experts in the field that feel the IFR works better in the upper hole. I can't say for sure and don't really care to dispute that, but I can say this mod works fine on the carbs I've done and gets a rare carb back into service. I don't do it because I think it's better.

[Tom Vaught]

Ah, I see where you are coming from BUT.

If you have a DZ carb a L78 Carb, or a CJ carb and a customer is paying big bucks for a totally correct carb, WHY would you modify the carb and put in a 2000 MY+ idle circuit when the carb to be correct needs to have the Original Lower IFR restriction position?

If you truly have too large of a IFR hole you drill out the existing hole in the metering block and press in new IFR inserts and then drill them to the correct Holley specified size that the carb came with. Before the butchers modified it.

Your post makes absolutely no sense from a restoration point of view.

If you are restoring a 1969 DZ carb you don't go by what people are doing 40+ years later. You restore it to how it was build in 1969. Course that assumes that you have the proper build info and not some magazine article from 2010 to go by.

And you sure as hell do not tell them that "it is all correct" with the changes you made to the carb. That is fraud.

Tom V.

You have made some "interesting posts" over the years but this one really surprises me.
I restored the Rochester carbs on the 65 GTO in the Henry Ford Museum and I put the carbs back to exact Rochester Specifications.
I did not make Changes and then call the carbs all correct (like the original guy did who sold them the car).

[Formulajones]

You're way off base Tom. Everyone is fully aware of anything I do here and why this approach makes sense from a functional standpoint. They only have to look stock on the outside, we make things better on the inside around here
Aside from that, Holley press in inserts aren't readily available, least not around here. The 6/32 set screws are available local however, and the trick works fine. Matter of fact there are a couple of long time Holley builders that prefer it. But none of that nonsense is what I was interested in. I'm not looking for your blessing. I was looking for real data on any experience you may have had vs what some of the other experts say. Like emulsion changes for instance and why some feel the fuel emulsifies better from the top than the bottom. You say it's not.....why? Give me some good points as to why. I would rather have an intelligent conversation.

[Tom Vaught]

Understand this chart and them you can ask more questions.

Tom V.

[Formulajones]

That doesn't explain or show what I'm asking. That appears to be explaining how the air and fuel mix and the relationships between air bleed and fuel bleed sizes, but mentions nothing about why some want the IFR up high where the air enters as apposed to down low and then having that fuel travel up before it is emulsified. The 2 links before you posted showed no bases for their reasoning either, they just basically say this is how it should be without going into detail as to why.

From what I've done here, I can't detect any discernable difference either way.

I'm all ears.