#421  
Old 05-13-2019, 08:34 AM
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You are correct as far as the location of given info moving a bit in the thread.
But the info is still there. Thanks Bart and PY for allowing the Sticky in the first place.

There are a lot of self taught Carb Guys out there who do quality work.

I was lucky to actually work for Holley Engineering and have access to a bunch of Technical people all in one spot.

I also was able to see how the Holley Calibrations were created on the "Air Boxes", the Dynos, and the "Road". Chuck Gulledge (RIP) was an excellent carb guy for Holley and for a few years built race carbs for people when he opened his business down south.
Holley Engineering was located in Michigan in the days when I was there.

Both of the Quick Fuel Owners came from Holley Engineering.

I could list 100 names of quality guys who worked for Holley in those days.

When Holley Engineering was split into two companies, Holley High Performance and Holley OEM Products the leadership fell apart. Borg Warner bought the OEM side of Holley and the Hot Rod side moved from Michigan down south. They went bankrupt a couple of times after that. They seem to have good management and resources today and are kicking out good products again. Two of my friends recently retired from the Old Holley (Michigan) company. Both were later Borg Warner Guys. One had 43 years playing with carbs and the other guy 41 years getting paid to do Holley/BW Testing.

The point of all of this is sometimes, depending on the management, maybe not so good decisions on how a new carb were designed and made. The old stuff was all well designed by people like Mike Urich, Al Lucas, Chuck Gulledge, and others.

The Newer Stuff came from people like Marvin Benoit, Marty Brown and David Braswell.

Just a bit of Holley History

Tom V.

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  #422  
Old 05-13-2019, 01:08 PM
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Tom what circle track carb has that metering block with all the adjustments? Heck if I got one looks like more to mess up a tune for me

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  #423  
Old 05-13-2019, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
I want to post up a couple of additional pics, not related to the #4224 Carbs specifically but for good information.

Attached is a baseplate picture from a website compant on E*ay that carries a large amount of individual Holley carb/Quickfuel carb type replacement parts that you would use when rebuilding your carbs.

https://picclick.com/eBay-Motors/Par...buretor-Parts/

I have my own sources for Holley Carb Parts but it might help other PY Members who are looking for specific pieces to redo a carb that they have.

Not a ADvert, just a link to some great pictures of Holley parts.

Tom V.
I bought a non Holley "billet" throttle plate a few years back. Just a pile of junk. Sent it back. The secondaries would not go 90deg no matter how I messed with it.
The steel parts on it were thin and soft, weak.
I bought a real Holley cast 850-1000 throttle plate and it was nite and day better. Steel parts were thick and stiff. I have some old Holley junk throttle plates and you could not cut the steel parts with a hacksaw.
Now Holley makes billet throttle plates. Not sure it makes them any better than their old cast plates though.

  #424  
Old 05-13-2019, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
Tom what circle track carb has that metering block with all the adjustments? Heck if I got one looks like more to mess up a tune for me
The Metering Block and Complete #4412 Holley carb in the picture was offered at one time on the Keith Dorton 2 BBL carbs made by Holley for Circle Track Racing.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/h...BoCIg4QAvD_BwE

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp...etering-block/

I bought 8 of the things right after the metering blocks first came out, Skip.

Tom V.

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  #425  
Old 05-13-2019, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
Tom what circle track carb has that metering block with all the adjustments? Heck if I got one looks like more to mess up a tune for me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post

jmarkaudio wrote:
"Most engines don't need 5 emulsion bleeds and by far most guys and gals don't know what to do with them any way. Lower power valve channels may or may not improve performance or the fuel curve, in most cases it doesn't.
You can get 100% of the performance on 98% of the applications with a cast block"


90+% of the guys in the Street Section want to run their Q-jet Carb, their Tri-Power Carbs, or their AFB Carb(s). The few "Holley Guys" for the most part have read a lot of Hot Rod articles or have paid the $$$$ to someone like the Western Michigan Guy who builds Holleys. We have a guy in the Race Section who ran both the Western Michigan Guys carb and a Barry Grant carb (that the Racer owned) and was actually quicker with the BG carb. Bye Bye $$$$.


Tom V.

I,m with you Skip, when I got done, it would probably make a decent flute.

On the other hand, if some one does need one, Tom can answer that call.



Frank

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Last edited by 4zpeed; 05-13-2019 at 04:41 PM.
  #426  
Old 05-18-2019, 10:05 AM
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I posted a reply to a question in the street section about Idle Feed Restriction Location in that thread.

I will post my comments in the Holley section here so that the info is in a common location vs lost in the other thread.

Formula jg post #77:

"I know you like the way it’s running now and that you will be away for some time so I just want to share
my experience with tuning several carbs that had the IFR located in the upper section of metering block. Once i relocated them to the old school Holley position (bottom of the metering block) it made the carb much, much more responsive. It also made it easier to tune out any flat areas or hesitations.
The difference in location of IFR was explained to me several years ago and it made total sense but I can’t explain it properly today, however I’m sure another member here could."

My Reply Posts: (Post #78

The best location for the IFR (Idle Feed Restriction) was identified in carburetors and the results reported in NACA REPORT #49 (Part II on page 607) See link below.

http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...-report-49.pdf

In the conclusions part of the document, conclusion #4 clearly states that:

"Submerged Fuel Metering Passages (IFRs) are free from Instability and Irregularity of discharge when the head is very small."

You can not have a submerged Fuel Metering Passage when the IFR is in the "HIGH" Position, (only the "LOW Position").

There are 10 other conclusions and all of them are correct.

Many Carb Tuners have converted back to the Low Position IFRs even though the Holley Carb came stock with the High Position IFRs.

Hope this helps.

The Report #49 is available on the web and is well worth reading if you really want to understand carburetors.

Tom V.

Formula jg post #79:

I knew it could be better said than ever could, thank you Tom.

My Reply Post: (Post #80)

No problem, thanks for the reminder that the info is out there once you know where to find it. But without some incentive to post it, I tend to just state the conclusion and not where the knowledge came from. Some believe that because a company is a Carb Company they actually know something about carbs.

Many Years Ago, (mid 1970s), Holley Engineering had employees buy modified Holley carbs from over 25 modifiers. (I have posted this info in the past).

This way the Modifiers did not know the carbs would be taken apart by Holley Engineering and each modification analysed.

Of the 25+ Modified carbs, only 3 carbs actually were slightly better vs the stock out of the box Holley carb and the HP difference was never more than a couple of HP. Lots of cash spent and no real bang for your buck.

A lot of this deal is "Monkey see, Monkey do" vs actually having read data generated by some of the smartest people in the world who wrote the NACA papers on Carburetors like the Paper Report #49 mentioned above.

Look at any Rochester 2-BBL carb. Where is the Idle Feed Restriction? At the bottom of the Idle Tube in the cluster assy. Guess why it is there. Liquid Fuel (A Submerged Fuel Metering location). Same deal for a Carter AFB.

Easy to drill a hole in a different part of a fuel circuit and claim that it is a better location. "Send me the money for my "modified Holley carb".

Tom V.

So now the info is saved to this thread.

Tom V.

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  #427  
Old 06-14-2019, 09:02 PM
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Not sure how many Pontiac People read STREET RODDER but I have been a subscriber for many years. Love the old 1930s Ford Vehicles: 32, 33, 34 especially. Think "American Graffiti". But enough background on the magazine.

In the August 2019 issue id an article by Jeff Smith on the Holley #3310-3 4160 4 BBL carb and later - number carbs.

The Holley carb comes stock with two of the Center-hung Float Bowls and a Metering Plate on the Secondary Side of the 4 BBL carburetor.

The Magazine article covers converting the Secondary side of the carb to Dual Metering Blocks. We have covered this topic somewhat in the past.

The article has some nice pictures and Jeff Smith gives a parts list that you can use when ordering from Summit. No real info for people who play much with Holley carbs but the classic look carbs are still my favorite vs the Silver or Natural Finish stuff.

The point being the typical Metering Plate needs to be drilled precisely if you need a greater rear main circuit flow. The once you did the drilling now you need to order a original metering plate if you want to go back to the original fuel flow settings and the Metering Plates are not cheap vs a pair of jets.

So you order the proper Metering Block and now you can swap jets on the rear for a very small cost if you have a box of Holley Jets on the shelf.

The Conversion Kit with metering Block and jets is Holley # 34-13
If you have a "silver" carb then part number 34-13S

Holley also sells a Kit for the #1850 carb.

That being said, I personally look for old #3310 Holley carbs at swap meets and buy a whole carb for $15-20 and use the Primary Metering Block on the secondary side.

The #3310 Primary Metering Block will work great on the secondary and also has the ability to install a Secondary Power Valve. So a couple of extra tuning options with that set-up. And a lot cheaper vs the stuff from Holley/Summit.

But Jeff is trying to sell parts for Holley and Summit.

Tom V.

My next post will cover how to make the mods necessary to make that old #3310 carb into a more modern #3310 "4 CORNER IDLE" VACUUM SECONDARY CARB.

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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 06-14-2019 at 09:13 PM.
  #428  
Old 06-14-2019, 10:05 PM
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I am a Moderator on a different site, here is a couple of posts on the 4 corner idle mod:

"Agree that you need to be very careful when you drill the main body for the
secondary idle circuits. Seen several carbs where guys drilled right thru the carb into the venturi section &gt.

Measuring the primary depth and using the same depth will work well.

Typically the idle air bleeds need to be opened up on the secondary side too. (same as primary). When done all 4 mixture screws should be 3/4 turn out at best idle (or close)."

Tom Vaught

His Reply:

"I was hoping you were going to post up in here Yeah you just described my setup lol. All idle air bleeds are the same size, and its the happiest with the idle screws around 3/4 of a turn out From a stone cold engine, I can pump the gas twice, hit the key, and it'll run without having to run the throttle I could never get it setup like that with a 2 corner idle setup.... Been tuning it for like 4 months now and it runs just as good as a efi setup would I'm very pleased :cheers: Thanks to all the info on the turboforums of course Thanks guys
Bowtie Guy"

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  #429  
Old 06-14-2019, 10:15 PM
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First off the 4 corner idle mod may not be necessary at all on some applications.

The 4 corner idle mod required modding some of the base plate circuits, drilling holes for the idle fuel flow on the secondary side in the main body, increasing the idle air bleeds on the secondary side, plugging the lower part of the Transfer Slot Passage, and drilling new Rear Idle Circuit Discharge Ports at the correct locations.

So adding that capability is a much more complicated operation vs just closing the idle screws on the Primary Metering Block (installed on the secondary side) and just having the easy and low cost jet change capability.

Tom V.

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  #430  
Old 06-14-2019, 11:38 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is offline
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Tom, have you ever thought of doing a Holley book like Brasswell ? I have his book.

  #431  
Old 06-15-2019, 12:16 PM
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The only book I ever thought about writing was a book about what I learned from each of my 79 bosses over the 39 years
I worked at my old job.

I had all of those bosses because sometimes I was working for 3 Chief Engineers at the same time.

A few went as high as Vice Presidents in the company. Many achieved Director Status which is one level below Vice President.

Some were great, a few (very few) were not so great, most were average plus.

The great ones made it to at least Director status.

Tom V.

ps My old Boss at Holley wrote several books on Holley carbs, Mike Urich, no need for me just to repeat his info for my personal gain.

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  #432  
Old 06-15-2019, 08:37 PM
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A few more tips for people today, these are related to Holley 2-BBL carbs, specifically the old Tri-Power Carbs used on the 340/440 6-Pack engines and the Tri-Power Carbs used on the Chevrolet 427 Corvette engine.

So in the 1st Picture, we have a Vacuum Tri-Power Set-up 427 Corvette. How can you tell from the picture?
Several ways really:

a) The fuel line connecting the three carbs is on the same side of the carbs as the Primary Carb Throttle Arm.

b) The Sight Plugs (that allow you to check the fuel level in the carb bowl) is on the same side of the carbs as the Primary Carb Throttle Arm.

c) Without even looking on the Passenger side of the engine, the center carb only has the metering block with mixture screws so the carb set-up is a vacuum diaphragm set-up.

d) Another key to the vacuum set-up is the connecting arms on the bottom of the three carb throttle arms. This group of parts make sure the secondary throttle blades close when the Primary Carb blades close.

Picture #2 shows the sight plug mentioned above and the required Washer to seal the plug to the bowl threads.

In the third picture, you can see that the carb we are discussing is one of the "outboard" carbs. WHY? because the airhorn is not drilled for the choke shaft. The center carb would have the choke shaft hole and shaft visible.
But there is another thing happening in the picture. Can you see the "Vapor Fog" above the carb? This tells you that you have a internal leak somewhere in the carb assembly.

In Picture #4, the metering plate is not flat, as shown by the feeler gage measurement.

In Picture #5, The Tuner is adjusting the Mixture Screw on the Drivers side Primary Carb Idle Mixture Screw on the Metering Block.

More on this subject later.

Tom V.
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 06-15-2019 at 09:05 PM.
  #433  
Old 06-15-2019, 10:31 PM
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Ok so now some pictures of the 340 & 440 SIX PACK carbs.
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  #434  
Old 06-15-2019, 10:38 PM
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In the first picture you can see that there are no fuel lines on the driver's side of the vehicle.

In the second picture you can see the Tall Mopar Intake and the primary (center) carb metering Block and no metering blocks on the secondary (vacuum actuated) end carbs.

In the third picture you can see the fuel lines on the passenger side, the Vacuum hoses that send vacuum to the end carb diaphragms to open those carbs, and the PCV hose and the hose that is for the distributor vacuum advance diaphragm.

The third picture is basically how the system would look in the vehicle and the 4th picture just shows the carbs and intake and no coil and other plumbing like the third picture does.

The point is that it is easy to spot mopar carbs at the swap meet vs the Chevrolet carbs.

Tom V.

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  #435  
Old 06-15-2019, 10:40 PM
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This last post for tonight shows the Mechanical Secondary special 4782 and 4783 mechanical race carbs.

The mechanical carbs have a metering block on all three carbs. The carbs all have accelerator pumps, the center carb has mixture screws, and a choke system. All in picture 31.

In picture #2, another look at the side hung bowls, the choke system, and the end carbs having factory short air horn heights on the end carbs. The big nipple on the center carb is for the PCV hose. These are race carbs. 350 cfm for the center carb and 500 cfm for each end carb. This is based on 2-BBL flow rating test conditions.

Tom v.
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 06-15-2019 at 10:45 PM.
  #436  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:52 PM
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Thought I would post a little bit on Holley Carb Idle Systems and Idle Systems in general.

1) First you have the Basic 2-BBL Rochester Carb, the AFB 4-BBL carb, the Rocjester Q-Jet, and many other carbs that had a "Dual Idle Circuit" system built into the carb.
Basically one for each Carburetor Bore. Pretty standard stuff here.

2) Then about the early to mid 80s, Holley decided to offer up the "4-Corner Idle" carbs.
(At least that is what people thought at the time.) One mixture screw for each barrel.

3) Now people had been putting multiple carbs on intakes for many years. Pontiac being one of them with their Tri-Power set-up BUT THERE WAS, as many know, AN IDLE CIRCUIT ONLY ON THE CENTER CARB. The end carbs did not have any idle circuit capability.

4) At one time, you could mount as many as 6 carbs on an aftermarket Pontiac
intake manifold. Most times the mechanic/tuner turned off all of the idle circuits on the carbs except for the center carbs on the dual Tri-Power set-up.

Because this is a Holley Carb Thread and we have given some history on the "other" carbs, now it is time to talk a bit about the Holley "Tri-Power" (Chevy) and the Holley
(MOPAR) 6-PACK idle systems.

The Holley "Tri-Power" (Chevy) and the Holley (MOPAR) 6-PACK Carbs had the normal two idle systems on the center carbs, (one for each barrel).

But the Holley Carb Guys were smarter vs the old mutli-carb guys in that they realized some benefits with adding fuel from the End Carbs at idle and part throttle conditions.
So they designed the Throttle Bases (not the metering block) with a Idle Screw for each End Carb barrel. They could not use the normal metering blocks on the end carbs because there was a lack of room to fit the Center Hung Float Bowls on the carbs as well as Metering Blocks. The Mopar and Chevy Guys really liked the "Looks" of the three RACE BOWLS on the carbs.

So how to make the Chevy and Mopar Guys happy and still have a idle circuit on the end carbs?

Here are some pictures how the Holley Engineers did it.

1st Picture you see the complete system and the lack of metering blocks on the end carbs. (You see the main body and the float bowl).

2nd Picture you see the special base plates for the End Carbs (with the sealing plugs installed).

3rd Picture you see the plug removed from the carb throttle base and the fine mixture adjustment screw.

4th picture you see the three parts to the assembly. (TWO CORK GASKETS (same one used on the normal metering blocks)
and the Mixture Screw. So with this you could fine tune the idle mixture coming from the main body of the end carb.

So you actually had a "6 Circuit Idle System" on the engines years before the "4 corner idle system" was put on the 4 bbl Double Pumper carbs.

So the Chevy and Mopar Guys had their 6 circuit idle system, but no room to run the normal metering blocks on all three carbs unless you used the "Side Hung" Float Bowls.

But Pontiac Guys are more fortunate, you can run the normal metering blocks and Race Bowls on a Tri-Power Pontiac manifold because there is more room! 1966 Cast Iron Tri-Power with adaptors or (Aluminum Tri-Power Intake Manifold from PY) with adaptors, and you can have a carb set-up that resembles the last picture but with Holley Race Bowls.

Tom Vaught
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 06-17-2019 at 06:12 PM.
  #437  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:35 AM
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More Info: What Circuits the fuel comes from. (click to make larger)

Tom V.
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  #438  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:28 PM
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It has been a while since I posted some Holley Carb Info

Here is a Handy Holley Jet Flow Chart for Jet Calculations

Enjoy

First Column is the Jet Number
Next two columns are the Holley Jet Part Number (example 122 40)
Next column is the Holley Drilled Size (example 0.0400)
Next column is the Jet Area (example 0.001257)
Last Column is the Flow of the Jet in Cubic Centimeters per Minute (Example 117)

The List goes from a Holley #40 Jet to a Holley # 110 jet.


40 122 40 0.0400 0.001257 117
41 122 41 0.0410 0.001320 122
42 122 42 0.0420 0.001385 129
43 122 43 0.0430 0.001452 135
44 122 44 0.0440 0.001521 142
45 122 45 0.0450 0.001590 149
46 122 46 0.0465 0.001698 156
47 122 47 0.0470 0.001735 163
48 122 48 0.0480 0.001810 170
49 122 49 0.0490 0.001886 178
50 122 50 0.0500 0.001963 186
51 122 51 0.0510 0.002043 194
52 122 52 0.0520 0.002124 203
53 122 53 0.0524 0.002157 212
54 122 54 0.0530 0.002206 221
55 122 55 0.0540 0.002290 230
56 122 56 0.0550 0.002376 240
57 122 57 0.0560 0.002463 251
58 122 58 0.0570 0.002552 262
59 122 59 0.0580 0.002642 273
60 122 60 0.0590 0.002734 285
61 122 61 0.0600 0.002827 298
62 122 62 0.0610 0.002922 311
63 122 63 0.0620 0.003019 325
64 122 64 0.0640 0.003217 341
65 122 65 0.0650 0.003318 357
66 122 66 0.0660 0.003421 374
67 122 67 0.0675 0.003578 392
68 122 68 0.0695 0.003794 411
69 122 69 0.0713 0.003993 429
70 122 70 0.0735 0.004243 448
71 122 71 0.0750 0.004418 470
72 122 72 0.0755 0.004477 492
73 122 73 0.0790 0.004902 517
74 122 74 0.0800 0.005027 542
75 122 75 0.0820 0.005281 566
76 122 76 0.0840 0.005542 587
77 122 77 0.0855 0.005741 615
78 122 78 0.0870 0.005945 645
79 122 79 0.0890 0.006221 677
80 122 80 0.0890 0.006221 703
81 122 81 0.0920 0.006648 731
82 122 82 0.0940 0.006940 765
83 122 83 0.0975 0.007466 795
84 122 84 0.0983 0.007589 824
85 122 85 0.0985 0.007620 858
86 122 86 0.1000 0.007854 890
87 122 87 0.1015 0.008091 923
88 122 88 0.1025 0.008252 952
89 122 89 0.1045 0.008577 987
90 122 90 0.1055 0.008742 1014
91 122 91 0.1085 0.009246 1080
92 122 92 0.1100 0.009503 1150
93 122 93 0.1125 0.009940 1205
94 122 94 0.1155 0.010477 1260
95 122 95 0.1165 0.010660 1320
96 122 96 0.1195 0.011216 1375
97 122 97 0.1210 0.011499 1440
98 122 98 0.1240 0.012076 1500
99 122 99 0.1260 0.012469 1570
100 122 100 0.1280 0.012868 1640
101 122 101 0.1282 0.012908 1713
102 122 102 0.1285 0.012969 1780
103 122 103 0.1300 0.013273 1850
104 122 104 0.1340 0.014103 1950
105 122 105 0.1370 0.014741 2063
106 122 106 0.1410 0.015615 2139
107 122 107 0.1450 0.016513 2240
108 122 108 0.1470 0.016972 2300
109 122 109 0.1500 0.017671 2420
110 122 110 0.1560 0.019113 2520

Tom Vaught

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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

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  #439  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:09 PM
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Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
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Been awhile since I posted here but wanted to pass on this Fuel Bowl Tip.

HOLLEY BOWL SWAP, FRONT TO REAR & REAR TO FRONT

I've used them swapped over like that for years on an 800 and 850 double pumper.

Primary bowl on Secondary side: Set fuel level to bottom of threads and then lower the level by 4 flats on the Needle and Seat Adjuster Nut.

Secondary bowl on Primary side: Set fuel level to bottom of threads and then raise the level by 4 flats on the Needle and Seat Adjuster Nut.

Tom V.

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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward.
  #440  
Old 01-19-2020, 11:25 PM
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amcmike amcmike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Been awhile since I posted here but wanted to pass on this Fuel Bowl Tip.

HOLLEY BOWL SWAP, FRONT TO REAR & REAR TO FRONT
What the idea behind swapping them?

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