[ponchospidel]

back to back comparissons. in 2006 the car ran 11.563@119.87 with 80degees&33%humidity that was a MR1 block/350cfm-HP head combo. today with IA2block/317cfm-BUTLER stport ELD head comobo the car went 11.287@121.44.(with 83degrees& 50%humidity and a 10mph head wind). all ather perameters were the same. with the KRE combo i alway had issues with oil on the #5plug and oil smoke when i lifted. not so now, no smoke and no oil on the plug. i picked up 40hp with heads that are smaller and flow less. the car ran a best of 5.88@118 with the first setup. i hope to run a lot faster with the new combo. since i swichted to the IA2 block i have had no problems.(wish i could say better about my dad's replacement block). if anyone has any questions about my testing they can contact me at ponchospidel@hot mail.com, or call me at home-1-765-534-4359. i will give nothing but the truthe, short and sweet weather you like it or not. i don't want this to turn into a bashing thread, but if you ask i will tell anyone whatever first hand knowledeg i have.(please give me a break on the spelling, us indiana boys can't type)

[David Holmberg]

Congrats Brad, keep up the good work! Keep us posted on the progress.

If anyone has any questions about the KRE parts PLEASE PM, E-mail or call Brad. DO NOT post them, and don't discuss them in this thread.

[bad69bird]

Congrats Brad! Glad to hear things worked out for you. When are you going to put the blower on?

[Brian Baker]

What blower are you running again and how much PSI? Did you notice a difference in boost produced with the smaller flowing head?

[60man]

Cool....maybe see you run at Norwalk.....
Don't you have a T-1000 project car too..????

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by ponchospidel

back to back comparissons. in 2006 the car ran 11.563@119.87 with 80degees&33%humidity that was a MR1 block/350cfm-HP head combo. today with IA2block/317cfm-BUTLER stport ELD head comobo the car went 11.287@121.44.(with 83degrees& 50%humidity and a 10mph head wind). all ather perameters were the same. with the KRE combo i alway had issues with oil on the #5plug and oil smoke when i lifted. not so now, no smoke and no oil on the plug. i picked up 40hp with heads that are smaller and flow less. the car ran a best of 5.88@118 with the first setup. i hope to run a lot faster with the new combo. since i swichted to the IA2 block i have had no problems.(wish i could say better about my dad's replacement block). if anyone has any questions about my testing they can contact me at ponchospidel@hot mail.com, or call me at home-1-765-534-4359. i will give nothing but the truthe, short and sweet weather you like it or not. i don't want this to turn into a bashing thread, but if you ask i will tell anyone whatever first hand knowledeg i have.(please give me a break on the spelling, us indiana boys can't type)

Is this a dumb question....? What does a block have to do with oil on a plug? Could Flow be affected by intake manifold match up with head intake ports? What was your sixty foot times and launch rpms? Track conditions playing apart in difference? Driver weight change? Are the times posted above "on just motor" ?

.

[Herb Hagan]

Originally Posted by triathlonx13

What does a block have to do with oil on a plug?

If the cylinder bore (block) has issue(s), then the piston ring seal will be compromised


Good to hear you're doing well Brad!

[triathlonx13]

Originally Posted by Herb Hagan

If the cylinder bore (block) has issue(s), then the piston ring seal will be compromised

ok - I can understand that. I'm sure it could be bad rings too then. I'm sure Brad used a new set of rings when going to the second block?? Maybe the oil/smoke was a bad ring. Might not ever know now?

.

[Brian Baker]

Half asleep when I posted. Brad I assume the 5.88 from the previous combo was boosted 1/8 mile time, correct? These new times listed for old and new combo are naturally aspirated, correct? When is the blower going back on?

[ponchospidel]

yes the new and old times are without the blower. as i said the parameters of the two tests couldn't be any closer. with the first combo the converter would go to 3000rpm, with the 2and combo the converter would go 3200rpm(more tourqe). the oil issues was coming from the heads(changed heads from hp to eld and no more smoke out of the motor or oil on the #5 plug). the a/f ratios were also the same. the blower will be back on the car and to the track by next wensday(hopefuly). the blower speed will be the same as before, so it wil be interesting to see the diferences in boost numbers and power output. got the blowthru-carb back today. wating on a few other items, then it will be time to have some fun. the blower is an F-2 prochager

[Dragncar]

A few questions about the original post.Was it sames cid,same cam,same ccs,same intake,could the intake on the 350 heads keep up with them,what is the car,combo and all that.Not to knock the car,but why is a aftermarket aluminum headed race car engine running 11.50s-11.20s even on pump gas?
My guess is the 317cfm heads had more velocity and made more torque though out the power band than the 350cfm heads and the car ET and mph better.It was just a better combo for the situation the engine was in.
The 350cfm heads would make more power than the 317cfm heads in the right situation.It might be at higher rpms and a shorter power band but physics is physics.350cfms can put more air in the hole than 317cfms, and it is all about putting more air in the hole(cylinder pressure) as far as making power.
It does not matter if both heads were E heads or both heads were KRE heads(as long as both did not have any porus/leaky fouling plug issues.

[Ray Cox]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

A few questions about the original post.Was it sames cid,same cam,same ccs,same intake,could the intake on the 350 heads keep up with them,what is the car,combo and all that.Not to knock the car,but why is a aftermarket aluminum headed race car engine running 11.50s-11.20s even on pump gas?
My guess is the 317cfm heads had more velocity and made more torque though out the power band than the 350cfm heads and the car ET and mph better.It was just a better combo for the situation the engine was in.
The 350cfm heads would make more power than the 317cfm heads in the right situation.It might be at higher rpms and a shorter power band but physics is physics.350cfms can put more air in the hole than 317cfms, and it is all about putting more air in the hole(cylinder pressure) as far as making power.
It does not matter if both heads were E heads or both heads were KRE heads(as long as both did not have any porus/leaky fouling plug issues.

I can answer part of that the car is running 11.50s and 11.30s. That is because it is set up to run on a power adder, these were just test passes with no power adder. My car runs 8.50s on Nitrous and 10.80s on HP it is geared into the ground and the converter is super tight so that when you do use the power adder it can be controled. my car 60 fts 1.80s and 1.90s on Hp and then 1.30s on nitrous

[ponchospidel]

the car is a 68firebird- 477" motor-4.35"x4". the compression was the same in bothe combinations, had to change pistons to make up the diference between the cc's 2 sets of heads to keep the compression(9.2:1) the same. both combos used ported victor intakes to match the heads. the camshaft is the same and was installed on the same intake centerline. same rotaing assymbly ecept for dif cc dish pistons to keep the same compreesion- the same weight of the pistons in each combo. the car weighs 3580#, has a th400 race tranny and 9" race converter, the rear gears are 3.90(set up for high rpm with the blower power) and 29.5x 11.5 mickey t slicks, 2.1/8" headers. the car is setup to run an F-2 procharger blower with 22+#'s of boost, the cam is setup for the blower, along with the torque converter .verry tight on the motor-3000-3200rpm but with boost it stalls from 5000rpm-5500rpm. the car is a mut on the motor. 1rst combo- motor run--1.78 60' ,7.47@ 96.98mph, and 11.56@ 119.87mph. second combo on the motor 1.80 60', 7.25@97.88mph, 11.28@121.44mph. first combo with the blower- 1.32 60', 5.88@ 118.32 in the 1/8mile. second combo with the blower(time will tell, i put money on it that it will be quicker). in all the combos i have shifted the car at 7000rpm, and on the motor the car crosses the line at about 5500rpm and the converter drops back 2050rpm on the shifts. with the blower the car crosses the line at 7000+rpm and the converter drops back only 1100rpm on the shifts. dragncar, hope this helps you understand how a car setup for a power adder is slow on the motor.

[Goathead]

1.30s on nitrous

So, Ray, is that what it takes to get your car going?

[firechicken]

Originally Posted by ponchospidel

the car is a 68firebird- 477" motor-4.35"x4". the compression was the same in bothe combinations, had to change pistons to make up the diference between the cc's 2 sets of heads to keep the compression(9.2:1) the same. both combos used ported victor intakes to match the heads. the camshaft is the same and was installed on the same intake centerline. same rotaing assymbly ecept for dif cc dish pistons to keep the same compreesion- the same weight of the pistons in each combo. the car weighs 3580#, has a th400 race tranny and 9" race converter, the rear gears are 3.90(set up for high rpm with the blower power) and 29.5x 11.5 mickey t slicks, 2.1/8" headers. the car is setup to run an F-2 procharger blower with 22+#'s of boost, the cam is setup for the blower, along with the torque converter .verry tight on the motor-3000-3200rpm but with boost it stalls from 5000rpm-5500rpm. the car is a mut on the motor. 1rst combo- motor run--1.78 60' ,7.47@ 96.98mph, and 11.56@ 119.87mph. second combo on the motor 1.80 60', 7.25@97.88mph, 11.28@121.44mph. first combo with the blower- 1.32 60', 5.88@ 118.32 in the 1/8mile. second combo with the blower(time will tell, i put money on it that it will be quicker). in all the combos i have shifted the car at 7000rpm, and on the motor the car crosses the line at about 5500rpm and the converter drops back 2050rpm on the shifts. with the blower the car crosses the line at 7000+rpm and the converter drops back only 1100rpm on the shifts. dragncar, hope this helps you understand how a car setup for a power adder is slow on the motor.

Thanks for that detailed description of your car's behavior. Really helps me to understand what's going on with my setup.

[Region Warrior]

Here we go with cfm again
It's not just how much it flows, port design has alot more to do with it.

Congrats Brad.
Think'n of a procharger in the future myself.

Rays car looks like you could out run it to the 60' mark without n2o.
With n2o its an animal.
It's the cam profile.
Would guess it's the same with Brads.

[Tom Vaught]

If you ever run any of the simulation programs where you can compare back to back runs you should try changing the compression ratio on them and see what the effect is.

You add a blower with 23 psi of boost and basically the whole character of the engine changes. A Blower car acts different from a turbo car. Say you make 20 psi of boost at 6000 rpm. At HALF the RPM (3000) you will make about 1/4 the psi. One reason why you need to get the chassis and converter right so you can leave above the midpoint of the rpm range without blowing the tires off the car. We are talking about a CENTRIFUGAL BLOWER HERE, Not a Roots style Blower. (Like Brad and Brian's F-2 deals).

You get the boost right and the car leaves good and then goes to max rpm you don't want a converter that drags the engine down where you have to "climb the mountain" again. MINIMAL FALL-BACK is what you want without having too much slippage in the converter.

Turbos and launching are a whole different topic.

Tom V.

[Mr. P-Body]

To add to what Ray has said, we had a Camaro a while back that made several low 10 second passes "on motor". 412 CID small block, set up for a 400 "hit". The 60' was in the toilet, at about 1.8. On the bottle, it dropped to 1.34. On tha 350 "hit", it went 8.96 near 150. About a 1.5 second difference, but the 60' tells the tale. The converter in a nitrous car is MUCH "tighter" than a "normal" one, and really hurts the low-end when not being sprayed.

Also, CFM is only an "indicator" of power POTENTIAL. We've tried to break the paradigm of "more CFM means more power" here, but it's tough nut to crack. If the CFM rating is done "wet", it's much closer to reality, but "wet benches" are few and far between. Low-lift flow is another important factor, meaning MORE than max flow. Pontiac E-heads tend to have favorable low-lift flow compared to other engine families. I can't speak to the HP heads, having not flowed or run them. Velocity is one of the major contributors to torque, as another has said. An old "saying" in our business: "Horsepower sells engines. Torque moves cars..." What are we trying to do here?

There are no "absolutes" here. Brad's making good power and the thing should FLY when the blower is hooked up! Thanks for the info, Brad.

Jim

[Goathead]

Ray, how big of a hit?

[Ray Cox]

Originally Posted by Goathead

Ray, how big of a hit?

I think the hit is relative, the jets with the new tune up ar 36 nitrous 34 fuel
I calculate the Hp from the fuel jet to figure my timing, some people do it from the nitrous jet. Fuel burns Fuel is HP nitrousdosent burn it creates the envirment for the fuel to burn. so in my bacwards mind i am hitting it with a 300 shot based on fuel jet and thats what i set my timing for