[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by b-man

Stevie Wonder could tell those castings are much cleaner looking than any cast iron factory head, they’re not going to fool anyone once they’re painted.

Angle plugs should be incorporated surely, making them straight plugs makes absolutely zero sense.

A nice looking head for sure and it will make the more purist type of performance guy happy, but if it offers nothing more than a casting number and to mimic the look of a factory head over their competition then they’ll miss the mark.

Yes, do the angled plugs and the rest of the little tricks to make them run better.
Keeping up with Chebbys is not easy, put everything we can in our favor.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

A lot of folks express interest in these heads.... I'm curious at what price point does your interest wane?

Well considering the alternative. Buying real versions are $4000 plus and then I have to spend another $1500 at the machine shop, only to have them flow stock or near stock numbers. No thanks.

So if they come in cheaper than that I consider it a deal.

The only other alternative is Eddy heads and then spending considerable hours making them stealthy, machining fake freeze plugs and all that really fun stuff I'd probably have as much in them as a set of stock heads I mentioned considering my time on top of that.

So yeah if these RAIV copies come in around the $3000 to $3500 mark and flow 300+ cfm out of the box then it's a deal by my standards. They absolutely don't have to be cheaper than eddy heads to gain my interest. I'll buy a set asap and start the stealth build I've had planned for a couple years now.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by b-man

Stevie Wonder could tell those castings are much cleaner looking than any cast iron factory head, they’re not going to fool anyone once they’re painted.

Angle plugs should be incorporated surely, making them straight plugs makes absolutely zero sense.

A nice looking head for sure and it will make the more purist type of performance guy happy, but if it offers nothing more than a casting number and to mimic the look of a factory head over their competition then they’ll miss the mark.

I am not so sure about that. Once the heat stove sheet metal is installed on the left head and the AC compressor and all the brackets on the right head and that beautiful Pontiac paint, only a few of the Pontiac purists out there will know they are not factory issue, Pontiac heads, IMO. Especially with stock looking casting numbers. Be interesting what Don has in mind for the spark plug placement. Really doubt there is more than 2-3 HP either way in a 500 HP engine. But I have no proof to back that statement up.

[Half-Inch Stud]

...didn't read a word of this Thread, but saw the aluminim RA IIs 9 6 on Facebook.

[PAUL K]

For the folks that haven't seen them on FB. Here's a picture of the aluminum 96 and an original 96.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

For the folks that haven't seen them on FB. Here's a picture of the aluminum 96 and an original 96.

Ray Charles reports they look exactly alike.



But seriously these are a great product, just missing the mark for those future owners who think they’re gonna fool anyone but the Chevy guys.

And maybe not them either.

[Formulajones]

I don't know, once painted with all the accessories 99 percent of people looking at a Pontiac engine won't know what they are really looking at. Most don't even know the difference between a RAIII or IV let alone casting numbers. I'm mainly doing it for my own satisfaction and happy someone is finally coming to market with something Ive been asking for for years.

[adamo]

Hell most “Pontiac” guys wouldn’t even know.

[chiefbigb]

I was not aware Stevie wonder was a Pontiac guy.

[Formulajones]

To put it in perspective I've had my 70 RA Formula for 30 years. Been all over the country with it. Up and down the California coast, been to Norwalk several times, the Carolinas, now in Arizona I've raced it all that time while serving as a daily driver, well over 100k miles, Pontiac heaven winner and part of several Pontiac clubs and cruises so it's not like the car sits. Wanna know how many people have ever asked knowledgeable questions about the casting numbers or even knew what the car actually was?

One!

That's right just one that I even recall that knew what he was looking at. So do I really think anyone is really going to know the difference if I put RAIV look alike heads on it? They didn't even make a RAIV 70 formula anyway but even most Pontiac people don't know that. My intention is not to fool anyone it's a RAIV formula but it does have to somewhat look the part and be mostly correct while hiding a big stroker engine. These heads will accomplish that goal and should easily put me deep 11's on stock tires while looking stock.

[chiefbigb]

Or Ray Charles for what it's worth. I do see some Monday morning quarter back in this thread. What does it actually take to create a cylinder head that did not exist? Don knows but I would bet the majority of the people commenting on this have no idea and have never created anything to be sold to the public. Just make comments on how they would do things differently. The project he took on in this department looks good so far and I believe fills a void. I would imagine he might make some higher quality intakes to go with them over time. If anyone wants a exact replica of a iron head made of aluminum make it and sell it yourself. He created his vision of what he thinks we need and invested his time and money doing so. Thank you Don and all involved in this project. I hope you get a decent return on your investment.

[b-man]

The point I’m trying to make is they don’t look like a copy of a RAII or RAIV head.

An aluminum or cast iron copy of these is what everyone has been saying they wanted and the general shape isn’t really all that close to what the originals look like.

For those who might have been in the market because they wanted heads that looked pretty close to factory heads these aren’t that.

We’re not talking about the 99 percent who are uninformed or really don’t know what they’re looking at. That same 99 percent of Pontiac guys wouldn’t buy $3000 heads no matter what they looked like.

It’s the picky people who know everything about them who want something that actually resembles the real deal and again they just don’t resemble the real ones close enough at least in my mind.

Throwing some casting numbers on a generic looking round port head without sweating the details a bit more might be a mistake because the guys who might have thought to buy these instead of KRE or E-heads won’t bite purely because the outward appearance isn’t close enough.

I do have some idea of what’s involved and it’s no mean feat. Coming up with the correct looking molds for the different year heads I’m sure would be cost prohibitive.

With that said I’m sure he’ll sell plenty of them at least at first, how long they’ll stay in production is anyone’s guess. The heads being sold by the competition have been going fairly strong for quite a number of years now, hopefully it works out the same for these.

[Formulajones]

I think they are close enough, certainly the closest we've ever had and I'm ok with that.

Sometimes I think people are just too picky.

These were never meant to mimic identical clones and I don't think anyone will ever come out with something exact anyway. If that's what you're waiting for I think we'll all be dead and gone before that happens.
May as well enjoy what we have now before it's gone for good.

[Skip Fix]

A buddy is building a 614 headed 455 for his '70 Esprit as a sleeper.

[PAUL K]

I feel the hobby is changing. It's hardcore folks that have been doing this for several decades grew up learning casting numbers, we studied H-O Racing's and Pete McCarthy's books. One needed to know casting numbers to improve their performance. Nowadays enthusiasts go to Butler's website or KRE's. They're more concerned about d-port or round ports. I also feel this will limit the market for heads with casting numbers.


We made our first pair of "stealth" heads around 1998. I believe they were the first "wide-port" heads also.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by b-man

The point I’m trying to make is they don’t look like a copy of a RAII or RAIV head.

An aluminum or cast iron copy of these is what everyone has been saying they wanted and the general shape isn’t really all that close to what the originals look like.

For those who might have been in the market because they wanted heads that looked pretty close to factory heads these aren’t that.

We’re not talking about the 99 percent who are uninformed or really don’t know what they’re looking at. That same 99 percent of Pontiac guys wouldn’t buy $3000 heads no matter what they looked like.

It’s the picky people who know everything about them who want something that actually resembles the real deal and again they just don’t resemble the real ones close enough at least in my mind.

Throwing some casting numbers on a generic looking round port head without sweating the details a bit more might be a mistake because the guys who might have thought to buy these instead of KRE or E-heads won’t bite purely because the outward appearance isn’t close enough.

I do have some idea of what’s involved and it’s no mean feat. Coming up with the correct looking molds for the different year heads I’m sure would be cost prohibitive.

With that said I’m sure he’ll sell plenty of them at least at first, how long they’ll stay in production is anyone’s guess. The heads being sold by the competition have been going fairly strong for quite a number of years now, hopefully it works out the same for these.

I agree..... I've seen many reproduction parts that look similar but are very different. Once you know the difference, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

One example the 70-74 TA steering wheels. They're not the same as original. Folks have done all kinds of work to make them look correct but at the end of the day you end up with a more correct looking not correct part.

I don't think the pricing on these aluminum heads is going to be much different than finding the cheaper iron round port heads and having them re-worked. At least to me, I'd rather spend an extra $500-$1000 and have the real deal.... JMHO

I should add if these heads fly off the shelf, Speed master will copy them and take all the customers on their Black Friday sale.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

I feel the hobby is changing. It's hardcore folks that have been doing this for several decades grew up learning casting numbers, we studied H-O Racing's and Pete McCarthy's books. One needed to know casting numbers to improve their performance. Nowadays enthusiasts go to Butler's website or KRE's. They're more concerned about d-port or round ports. I also feel this will limit the market for heads with casting numbers.


We made our first pair of "stealth" heads around 1998. I believe they were the first "wide-port" heads also.

We're all getting old. Dad has been a Pontiac nut since he bought his 69 goat new and I followed suit. We made hp back then up through the 80's and 90's with factory castings until Eddy round ports came out.

Yeah I'd rather have the real deal too but I'm not paying $4000 for a set of heads that will cost me $1500-$2000 to make them usable only to have a head that flows what, 230 cfm?
I don't need real heads that badly.
I'll gladly fork over what will likely be $3000-$3500 for DCI, if cheaper even better, and have a head that looks close enough, closest I've seen to date, and flow 300+cfm.
Yeah I would guess this may drive prices down on the iron stuff or at least make them a harder sale to all but the numbers guys that absolutely need them.

[67Lemons]

I don’t know that these heads or other aluminum heads really affect the used market at all. There’s two types of sellers I see in my neck of the woods, the first & best seller (IMO) is the guys who’ve accumulated all these parts over the years & sell them at a reasonable price. AKA know how to price items as cores as necessary or charge a fair value for quality used parts, these guys are aging out & not generally in tune with the current market.

The other kind of seller that I see is the folks who think every Pontiac part was on a “Ram Air Judge Big Block” & ask absolutely outrageous pricing for these clapped out core units, these guys aren’t obviously in tune with the market either or they would price accordingly (again a new aluminum head offering won’t change their pricing strategy) Ever look at asking price of Pontiac Tri Power units? Typically called “trips or 6 packs” by sellers asking insane money for units missing everything & needing full rebuilds…. Again since they were on a “GTO” they are priced more than gold. The large segment of loyalists in this hobby are aging out fast & replaced by fantasy auction house flipper folks who think that what they have is super special because they saw it on a TV show, it’s sad but that’s the reality.

EDIT: The folks on this forum & other forums I frequent are the anomaly to the above rant

[Rar_421]

Info from the podcast
2.19 Intake 1.72 exhaust
Ra 4 size intake
1.8 ih springs
Angled plug heads
Chambers will be cnc machined 75-85 cc
Thick decks,able to remove up to .150
This info is for the 48 head

[Rar_421]

Ra 4 head
Has a boss for both early and late model -71&up brackets & ac