[AdamIsAdam]

ok, I've been hijacking other threads on this issue long enough so I'm starting my own thread. Here's what's going on:

My oil pressure is now lower than it was in November, before I changed the oil and basically put it away for a few months.

Background info: My engine was built about 3 years ago with modest seasonal use only. I bought it last winter. It's 10.4:1 Butler 469 stroker on a 400 block. Melling 60 psi pump. Comp Cam xe274 with 1.65 roller tip rockers. Engine completely deburred. All oil passages chamfered. I have no detonation at all, even on pump gas.

PCV: I am running one PCV from the passenger side valve cover to the carb base, non-ported, and also a Mopar type Moroso PCV/separator from the driver's side to the base of my open element air cleaner with the idea of pulling pressure out of the engine during WOT. When I bought the car last Spring, it had a bad leak at the rear main seal that a new seal didn't cure. The engine was using two open element breathers in both valve covers; no PCV. Changing to this new PCV setup eliminated that leak by about 95% or more. (The rear main seal was replaced by a friend just before I took delivery of the car.) Now I get a few drips of oil on the floor whereas before it was a small puddle.

In November changed the oil from Dino 10w40 with ZDDP to Amsoil 20w50, and the filter from STP to K&N initially, and then an AC Delco last weekend (all the small 3" type due to my headers). I was hoping the different filter would result in different PSI but it didn't.

I'm not 100% positive of my oil pressure before, but I'm pretty sure it was around 45psi at 3,000 RPM cruising when hot. Now, when cold I get good PSI, around 55 at high idle. At highway speeds as the engine gets hot, that PSI drops to nearly 30 PSI, and today as the engine temp rose to 205 at 3,000 the oil PSI dropped to 25. At idle it was around 12PSI. Also note that I'm messing with my vacuum advance timing and it seems to be causing higher engine temps of around 205 versus 180-190 before. The temp only rises that high on the highway, but around town it comes back down to 180 or so. It's in the 50's outside today.

So, I got fed up with this issue and tonight changed the Amsoil out for dino 20W50 and ZDDP additive. And... NO CHANGE! Nice waste of $100 worth of Amsoil!

Plus, when I finally decided to get on the gas a bit, as I revved past 4,000 RPM, the PSI actually dropped a bit, towards 25! Now understand that I never watched the oil psi gauge before while winding it out so I don't know what it was doing before, but this doesn't sound good to me.

What gives? Should I be worried? I can't imagine anything changed by my changing the oil. I did have an experience with my last car where I changed the oil and then got some foreign debris in the oil pump relief ball valve, but that engine had all kinds of foreign matter in the oil pan. This engine is relatively new. Plus, I'm getting very good cold psi, something I didn't get when the debris wouldn't let the valve close before.

Also, the Amsoil allowed for more oil leaking from several places, like the front of the pan which never leaded before. Tonight, when I went to the car initially, there was a lot of oil on the floor mat under the car and it was low nearly a quart. But when I got back from a 25 mile drive, it didn't leak any Amsoil out aside from maybe a drop. And after changing to dino, also no leaking.

One other change is now I'm having the dipstick come out slightly when I rev it up, so someone suggested using a piece of hose on the tube to forcefully keep the stick in place. See below pic. It seems to be working. But this wasn't happening before.

Ideas?

-------------------------
here's a pic from this weekend. Note engine temp and oil PSI. RPM was 3,000 in first two pics:



here's a pic from today, again, note engine and oil:


Cold start oil PSI with Amsoil:


Dipstick mod:


So... HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPP!

[steve25]

Syth oil will make any minor oil leak 10 times worse when the oil is at normal temp, and forget about it if you put a Teflon additive to even regular motor oil!
Unfortunally you will likely be dropping off the pan to clean out what's now holding the oil pump check ball open to some degree and also to check bearings out!
If I where you and you end up pulling the pan off I would get some aluminum window screen and make up and tack weld up a support that will give you about a 6 inch circle of the screen and then hose clamp it to the pick up tube.
The stock pumps screen mesh is too course to keep tiny bits of crap out of the pump and the only way to cure it is witha finner and larger area screen!

[AdamIsAdam]

Oh come on! You really think I have debris in the oil pump valve again? This motor is relatively new. Last time this happened with last car, the engine was old and I found this inside:



I really do NOT want to drop the pan, especially this early in the season.

[AdamIsAdam]

I can't believe this is happening to me... AGAIN! I just found my old thread on this subject with my last car. It's nearly identical! argh!

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=545353

[grivera]

Have you already cut the oil filter open to check for debris? How about crankshaft end play?

[AdamIsAdam]

Well, the K&N filter was only on there for a very short while, like 150 miles. And the oil PSI change was almost immediate (ie, before those 150 miles were driven).

I know the truth is that I have debris in the oil pump bypass. I just don't want to face that reality! it's EXACTLY the same symptoms that I had back in 2007. I just can't believe this happened to me twice!!! And this time I was specifically cautious about that which is why I made sure I changed the oil when it wasn't cold outside yet, I warmed the car first AND ran it afterwards (something I don't think I did last time, I just changed it after warming it, but then left it for the winter months without starting it on the new oil).

The only common denominator was that I changed to synthetic both times it happened.

[Johnny406]

I had a similar problem with the old 406 a few years ago. I found a piece of silicone about the size of a toe-nail clipping in the check ball. I put it back together and checked a few random bearings which were good. I then flipped the motor so the pump is on the bottom. I put a big trashbag lined box under the stand and submerged the pickup in a coffee can full of oil and primed the motor and watched the pressure gauge I had hooked up in the oil passage by the distributor hole. It made a mess of course but I verified that I fixed my problem.

[grivera]

Do you have any idea if the 5/8 oil pump check ball was swapped for a 9/16" ball with shimmed spring to make up the difference?

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

I'm not 100% positive of my oil pressure before, but I'm pretty sure it was around 45psi at 3,000 RPM cruising when hot.

45psi at 3K rpm seems low for a 60# pump. Do you know what your bearing clearances are?

[steve25]

Take the time to make up the fine mesh screen, you 2.5 times the area of the stock screen and just make sure it can not collapse under pump suction.
Also remove the oil filter adapter and blow back the feed hole to the pump to make sure that is cleaned out!

[AdamIsAdam]

I don't think the 5/8 ball was swapped for 9/16. The guy that built it gave me all his notes (he followed Jim Hand's book and build checklist), the machine shop work and receipts. The oil pump from Butler is a MEL-M54DS.

I'm reading the paperwork I have from the assembly process and of course the lines for the main bearing clearances is blank. It lists the torque for the main caps, but not the clearances, the ring gaps, etc, but not bearing clearances. You wanted the main bearing clearances, right? because I found the rod bearing final clearances, which are all .0028.

This was a fully balanced assembly from Butler. Does that make a difference?

If anyone wants to look through this, I'll gladly email you the scanned copies.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

So did you have this engine built originally or buy it used.. unclear?
The lifter parts are from a previous failure when you owned it,correct.
Was the engine tore down completely and cleaned out or cam slipped?

Dipstick pushing itself out is from blow by or vibration?

How much oil pressure, peak when you start the car and bring up rpm's, cold.

I wonder if you have a wide clearances, pump problem, or lifter problem causing you issue, should be able to deduce with some more info.
From some of your photos you drive it pretty hard sometimes, do you think you may have hurt the valve train by over revving?

Curious what block casting # used for this engine?

BTW, nice looking ride.

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

So did you have this engine built originally or buy it used.. unclear?
The lifter parts are from a previous failure when you owned it,correct.
Was the engine tore down completely and cleaned out or cam slipped?

Dipstick pushing itself out is from blow by or vibration?

How much oil pressure, peak when you start the car and bring up rpm's, cold.

I wonder if you have a wide clearances, pump problem, or lifter problem causing you issue, should be able to deduce with some more info.
From some of your photos you drive it pretty hard sometimes, do you think you may have hurt the valve train by over revving?

Curious what block casting # used for this engine?

BTW, nice looking ride.

I bought this car just over a year ago from a friend. The prior damage pictured was from 2007 on my prior car.

This engine is a 1970 400 that was completely rebuilt from scratch using 3 years ago using a Butler balanced stroker kit to 469 cid. Block prepped (line-honed, edges filed off, oil passages rifle brushed, etc.)

The #46 heads have extensive work done, including the obvious screw in studs (not sure why he started with #46, I think it's just what he had), porting and filling exhaust crossover with aluminum.

Yes, I like to play with it and wind it out, but I have never over revved. I shift around 5,200. The bottom end should be good to well over 6,000 with Eagle H Beam rods, keith Black pistons, Federal Mogul Race main bearings, Eagle Cast crank 3" mains 4.25 stroke, 2.200 rod journals etc. The top end is com camp XE274, comp cam lifters #852, and comp cam #995 double springs. Valve guides are bronze, it says they were knurled, whatever that menas. Intake and exhaust seals are poly. rocker arms are C.A.T. 1.65. Oh, and Ferrea Valves (2.11, 1.77)

Oil pressure cold at fast idle of around 1,800 is about 63PSI as shown here:


Oh, and thanks for the kind words. I like the car and am pleased with it so far. Aside from this

[grivera]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

I'm reading the paperwork I have from the assembly process and of course the lines for the main bearing clearances is blank. It lists the torque for the main caps, but not the clearances, the ring gaps, etc, but not bearing clearances. You wanted the main bearing clearances, right? because I found the rod bearing final clearances, which are all .0028.

I was wondering why your hot oil pressure was so low at 3k rpm and thought your bearing clearances rods/mains may have been a contributing factor, especially with the grade of oil you're using. Regarding the stuck ball scenario- wouldn't that cause issues during cold start up as well?

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by grivera

...Regarding the stuck ball scenario- wouldn't that cause issues during cold start up as well?

Not really because when there's a very small piece of debris in the ball valve, it only bleeds off a little pressure. Less when the oil is cold and thick. the hotter and thinner it gets, the more oil escapes through the unseated ball valve.

That's why some suggest forcing pressure through the ball valve by either revving a cold engine or doing what I did 8 years ago and block off the oil filter and use a drill as a primer to pump oil past that ball valve in hopes of it opening and the oil sweeping the debris away with it.

That didn't work for me last time. When I took out the oil pump, I'm reasonably sure that this freaking tiny piece of debris is what was causing my problems. It was metal. Why it didn't come loose with the oil is beyond me because it wasn't embedded into the ball valve area like a fossil or anything.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Knurled guides.....

Post your paperwork.

[AdamIsAdam]

See if this works...


https://www.dropbox.com/s/wate9jktjt...0Scan.pdf?dl=0

EDIT: I'm so pissed! I know I have to pull the pump! argh! Anyone know if I can pull the pan with the motor lifted, but still in the car on a 64 with headers, scatter shield and a stick?? I did it on the 68, but it sucked.

argh!!!!

[steve25]

It can be done, but it will suck once again and you may need to yank off one header or the other and lash it up to the wheel well .

[HWYSTR455]

Butler usually goes for bigger clearances, like 30+ on the mains, so psi is going to be a little lower than what you would expect. Around 15 at idle is normal for their' builds, and around 50 is normal for max hot on a 60 psi pump. That's why they recommend 20-50w to begin with. 30 at cruise is a little low, but that could be from other reasons.

What kind of pan do you have on there? If it's an OE pan, add a quart and see how it is at cruise. It might be better, which will give you an indication of what's going on in there.

I think you're good, but call Butler, especially if they assembled it.

As an FYI, on a fresh build, always change the oil after start up and break in. Change it again at like 100 miles, and again at 1000, so it get all the crap out that may have been trapped from being open during the assembly. Blows me away when people go 3000 miles on break in oil. (not saying that's what you did)

That crap in the pan from the previous build is from a lifter, without snap rings, and it got hammered out from either a loose adjustment or a lobe going away. Make sure you have adequate preload on this build.

Check your gauge too. Since we're on the subject, what kind of gauge do you have? And where do you take your reading from? If you take it from the back of the block, then definately you're good with the psi you are seeing. (it's roughly 10 psi less than at the filter)

.

[AdamIsAdam]

I went out this morning and started the car cold. It was in the high 40's last night and expected to be much warmer this weekend, so this seemed like the best time to try this. I figured I'd run it cold a few times before I start pulling things apart in hopes of getting lucky and dislodging whatever is in stuck in the ball valve.

So, cold I got the following good oil pressure (click to watch vid):



Here's a still of the highest pressure as I gently revved the engine to about 3,500 RPM after it was running for a little bit. That's nearly 75 PSI. Wouldn't this cause the ball valve to open?:




And here is the video of the car running at highway speed at nearly 3,000 RPM showing about 40 PSI. Note that the temp never got over 175, so this temp is not where I start to really see a problem, it's when the engine temps are around 200:




HWYSTR455, I'll reach out to Butler. Good idea. They supplied the rotating balanced assembly but didn't put the engine together. I bought the car last winter and have driven it 1,600 miles of fun and games. The oil was changed just before I got it so November was my first oil change. It's a stock pan. The pressure used to be closer to 50 on the highway.

Also note that the damage shown above was from another car all together where I had the same thing happen. Just bad luck.

[nytrainer]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

..............where do you take your reading from? If you take it from the back of the block, then definately you're good with the psi you are seeing. (it's roughly 10 psi less than at the filter)

.

HWYSTR455 has a great point there Adam. Is your gauge tapped into the oil filter adapter or the back/top of the block. Either way, though, you are seeing a decrease in previous pressures right?
If you're gonna swing the engine I have a crane and a strong, agile 17 year old son you can borrow. Let me know. We'd be glad to help you.