[AdamIsAdam]

What about doing one of the aftermarket water pumps like:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bra-1649

or

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mil-16281

Would that alleviate the need to modify the clearance and eliminate human error?

Since I'm not looking for originality, what is the downside to going with one of these (aside from price)?

I like slapping shiny new parts on my car. It's fun, especially if they work well.

[Old Goat 67]

Probably won't.

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

Probably won't.

A man if few words I see. "Probably won't" what? Work better? or won't require modification of the backing plate?

[tom s]

I guess I have been real lucky for the last 53 years.The ONLY over heating issues I have really ever had was related to timing.Retarded timing was the issue.I have never checked clearance on any of my water pumps.I have used 4 bolts(still have one running,8 bolts and 11 bolts.Had a little issue with my 62 GP once in high heat weather and extended traffic idle untill I put a shroud on it.Tom

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

https://secure.amesperf.com/qilan/De...A&web_access=Y

https://secure.amesperf.com/qilan/De...A&web_access=Y

Looks like you got the good impeller, just set/check the clearance.
http://s300.photobucket.com/user/ada...54934.jpg.html

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by STEELCITYFIREBIRD

https://secure.amesperf.com/qilan/De...A&web_access=Y

https://secure.amesperf.com/qilan/De...A&web_access=Y

Yup, saw those two parts on the site. Seems to be the same water pump as the one I posted from Summit, no? SO, QUESTION IS: WORTH IT? DOES IT STILL REQUIRE MODIFICATION TO THE DIVIDER PLATE?

I do like the idea of a new divider plate - couldn't hurt to have a spare in case I mess one up.

Speaking of spares, guess what I found in the box of parts that came with my car last year:




Looks like a cast impeller to me, no?

PO said he picked it up at a swap meet once as a spare when he suspected a bad pump but it turned out to be bad bearings in another accessory (alternator I think?)

Should this pump spin freely when I spin it? It doesn't. It's sort of stiff. Not in any way binding, just a bit stiff.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Pull it and see what you got now (clearance/impeller type). Go from there.

[AdamIsAdam]

yup. I may just order the new FlowKooler part so I have it on hand should I decide to install it. I like the idea of the new part assuming no one has had problems with them. The brand that I read (on Summit's reviews) that was not great is Milodon. The FloKoolers have good reviews.

If it works, I'm all in. I also like the look of the aluminum pump to match my aluminum intake and my new but not-yet-installed RobbMc fuel pump. All I need next is aluminum heads! LOL (NOT!!!)

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I believe you will find impeller clearance is specific to the pump in hand. MANY variables out there.
Don't buy a pump unless you need one (impeller type), then maybe you can get you some non magnetic cyl heads...sooner than later!

The extra pump you have is probably fine, there is drag from the seal.

[Squidward]

This was a good read.

http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/advance.htm

I liked his charting of manifold vs. ported vacuum (link way down the page). It was nothing that hasn't been stated before, but sometimes pictures help. It did for cavemen a long time ago.

[HWYSTR455]

~sigh~ .. Ok, first, one needs to approach things methodically, instead of shotgun approach or stabbing in the dark. Also need to note the changes you make, and any differences those changes made. Troubleshooting 101.

When it comes to impeller clearances, EVERY water pump needs to have the impeller clearances checked upon assembly, and if it's a GROSS discrepancy, then it certainly needs to be corrected. Because of tolerances in manufacturing of pumps, housings, how far the impeller is pressed on the shaft, etc, are all over the place, which directly effects the clearance. You can get lucky, and in a lot of circumstances the clearances are fine, but, it's always good to check. And just because you clearance it once, when you change a pump, you have to recheck the clearance. Changing the gasket can have an impact, need to choose the same thickness gasket next time, so here again is a good time to be taking notes.

IF, if you are suffering cooling issues, and nothing you do seems to correct them, then checking the clearance is one step in troubleshooting the issue. In this case though, it was running cooler before a change was made, so IMO, the pump clearance isn't the problem here. If it were, it would be hot all the time. Just trying to approach this logically.

A fan can block air flow on the highway and not at idle. Blade design, shroud, etc, can all effect flow across the core at different speeds. It's best to have a shroud design that has pressure reliefs if the area of the fan doesn't cover 80+% of the core.

Another thing, running an electric fan over like 50 mph does nothing for cooling, and it can block more flow than not running. As an example, if a fan moves 3000cfm, and at 60 mph air flows through the core at 5000cfm, where does the rest of the air go? (don't ponder that too hard, it's just an example)

"I changed from a Holley DP to a brand new Cliff Ruggles Qjet and also started messing with vacuum advance. This started sending my engine temps soaring and my oil pressure plummeting. "

Ok, engine water temps do effect oil temps, which in turn does effect oil psi. But. There are still times where oil temps are going to rise, like extended periods on the highway. And unless there are other factors, oil temps will eventually be in a 'range' while in operation, and it shouldn't be enough to drastically effect oil psi. My understanding there was a gauge issue that caused the oil psi inconsistencies in the other post, but I would have to go back and reread, memory isn't serving me as well as it used to!

A real quick comment when it comes to carbs. You can't have someone 'setup' your carb to your engine's exact 'specs' and expect it to work perfectly the moment you bolt it on. That's not how it works. It can be very close, but it's ALWAYS going to need minor adjustments, there's just too many variables.

So what does this leave? What has changed that made a difference in your cooling concerns? Timing.

" I can't hot-start the car with more than 14* initial even with my mini starter without lots of kickback."

Ok first if your mini starter doesn't turn that engine over at like 14 or 16 degrees of initial timing and it's dragging or kicking back, you have electric issues or a bad starter. Check the cables, connectors, load test the battery, etc, go over the starter system and make sure everything is up to par. Crappy battery cables or a crappy battery is my guess on your setup, sounds like you would have taken care of anything else in that system, have pretty good attention to detail. Put a remote sol on it too which is a good idea anyway. You definitely have a hot start problem in the starter system.

So back to timing and the curve. I'm thinking that engine may need a lot of lead, maybe chamber design, SCR, intake, whatever, but giving it the benefit of the doubt. Give it to it then. Use as much initial as the starter can handle. That of course is taking into account the system is up to par. I'm guessing 16 - 20 isn't out of the question, and to a mini starter that is cake. Increasing initial means you have to limit total, so keep that in mind. The total max should be one of the first things determined. Once you have initial determined, total determined, then it's just rate you have to deal with. Once that's done, THEN do vacuum. Give it as much as it wants/can take until you have ping, then back off. The areas you should use for testing that, which is while driving by the way, is like with 2 people in the car, full tank of gas, and going up and down hills.

Usually, when you throw more timing at an engine at idle, the idle speed goes up, meaning you have to adjust idle speed. I haven't heard you comment on any changes to idle speed being made through all these changes, are you making any? And also, going up 100 rpm isn't a bad thing, and can also help some with idle temps. Most of my cars idle at 900-950 to give you an idea. How are you checking rpm? (since it came up)

I'm still not clear on whether or not the numbers you're getting with your light are right, still sounds like something is askew. I noticed you don't have an HEI module in the dizzy, so guess you're running an MSD or similar box? You know some timing lights don't work right with some boxes, right? Maybe take a pic of your timing marks too. On the timing cover. Tell us what kind of box you have, and the settings on the box.

.

[TheSilverBuick]

I'll admit I didn't read all the thread (lots of stuff here! Probably good stuff too!), but my observations on my Skylark, with EFI and a live dash cluster showing most the data the EFI system is seeing and commanding. My observations of influences are generally at idle because always running lean at cruise and my radiator is large and well shrouded (with 7-blade clutch fan) so never have noticed a temperature issue at speed.

AFR matters, particularly at idle. I see a 5ºF coolant temp change with 1 point of AFR change. Same timing and idle speed. If I am idling at 14.0:1 it runs 5ºF warmer than idling at 15.0:1. There are times when lean conditions can cause overheating, but that is typically under load and bad news for exhaust valves, etc. I've never experienced a lean condition at idle that cause my coolant temps to go up.

Timing matters, particularly if you are idling rich. I have active idle control that involves retarding or advancing the ignition advance to meet the intended idle speed so it waivers a bit, but before that I did notice in general if I was idling above ~23º, the engine ran warmer. Pulling the timing back to 15º-18º, it ran cooler. I've never had to little timing at idle cause an overheating condition, nor too much at cruising speed cause a temperature issue that I've noticed (At light cruise I run around 45º advance at 2,400rpm).

If I was running mid-20's timing and below 14.0:1 idling it would easily run 10ºF hotter than normal, perfect storm'ish (and actually what it intentionally does to speed up engine warm up). It normally ran right at 185ºF, so would poke at 200ºF sitting at idle in this scenario, but with leaner AFR's and reduced timing it would stay right at 185ºF. With the proper timing and tune, I've idled in stop and go Las Vegas traffic in ~120ºF weather, where I was dying in the car, but the car was idling fine at ~185º-190ºF. In 2013, when I had the A/C system working, I was in surface street rush hour in Denver and it was 103ºF according to a bank clock, and I was sitting cool in the car with the windows up, A/C on and coolant temps still in the 185º-190ºF range. I changed thermostat's last fall and now it runs right at 180ºF, so shows the new thermostat is calibrated better than the old. I still don't expect any great temperature swings going into this summer.

As for water pump efficiency, I don't have any real experience with the Pontiac engines, but the OE timing cover I originally had on my Skylark had massive pitting and general ugliness behind the water pump that caused me to over heat at idle, or at least run far warmer than I'd like it too. Then I installed a new aftermarket timing cover, no other changes, and the coolant temps were brought under control and have been reliable ever since. So does show water pump impeller tolerances are pretty important, especially for slow speed efficiency.

[TheSilverBuick]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

A fan can block air flow on the highway and not at idle. Blade design, shroud, etc, can all effect flow across the core at different speeds. It's best to have a shroud design that has pressure reliefs if the area of the fan doesn't cover 80+% of the core.

Another thing, running an electric fan over like 50 mph does nothing for cooling, and it can block more flow than not running. As an example, if a fan moves 3000cfm, and at 60 mph air flows through the core at 5000cfm, where does the rest of the air go? (don't ponder that too hard, it's just an example)

And I 100% concur with this. I'd go so far as to say once you are over about 25mph the fan is beginning to be more a restriction than help if left on.

[AdamIsAdam]

HWYSTR455,
Thanks for taking the time to write this all out. I'll answer your questions below:

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

IF, if you are suffering cooling issues, and nothing you do seems to correct them, then checking the clearance is one step in troubleshooting the issue. In this case though, it was running cooler before a change was made, so IMO, the pump clearance isn't the problem here. If it were, it would be hot all the time. Just trying to approach this logically.

That's why I was saying I didn't want to start looking outside of my changes, but people suggested to cover my bases. Not a bad idea. My temps weren't great before, as they did wander a bit, but never when it was cool out and NEVER did it run at 210 on the highway. Highway was not an issue before at all IIRC.

Another thing, running an electric fan over like 50 mph does nothing for cooling, and it can block more flow than not running.

I wondered about this and where that crossover point is as well. But then again, nothing changed on this from before. Either way, I'll try switching the fan off on the highway when the temps rise and see if that helps.

"I changed from a Holley DP to a brand new Cliff Ruggles Qjet and also started messing with vacuum advance. This started sending my engine temps soaring and my oil pressure plummeting. "

Ok, engine water temps do effect oil temps, which in turn does effect oil psi. But. There are still times where oil temps are going to rise, like extended periods on the highway. And unless there are other factors, oil temps will eventually be in a 'range' while in operation, and it shouldn't be enough to drastically effect oil psi. My understanding there was a gauge issue that caused the oil psi inconsistencies in the other post, but I would have to go back and reread, memory isn't serving me as well as it used to!

Yes, the electric gauge was less accurate than the new mechanical one. It was almost exaggerating the swings. But I'm still having basically same symptoms. I do like the new gauge's wider sweep area so I can more accurately see the PSI.

A real quick comment when it comes to carbs. You can't have someone 'setup' your carb to your engine's exact 'specs' and expect it to work perfectly the moment you bolt it on. That's not how it works. It can be very close, but it's ALWAYS going to need minor adjustments, there's just too many variables.

Understood and agreed. I just didn't want to make big changes in error and then introduce more variables.

So what does this leave? What has changed that made a difference in your cooling concerns? Timing.

" I can't hot-start the car with more than 14* initial even with my mini starter without lots of kickback."

Ok first if your mini starter doesn't turn that engine over at like 14 or 16 degrees of initial timing and it's dragging or kicking back, you have electric issues or a bad starter. Check the cables, connectors, load test the battery, etc, go over the starter system and make sure everything is up to par. Crappy battery cables or a crappy battery is my guess on your setup, sounds like you would have taken care of anything else in that system, have pretty good attention to detail. Put a remote sol on it too which is a good idea anyway. You definitely have a hot start problem in the starter system.

It's been much better ever since I've kept the battery tender on it more often. I'll double check these issues though. At 14* it's not a problem to start now.

Usually, when you throw more timing at an engine at idle, the idle speed goes up, meaning you have to adjust idle speed. I haven't heard you comment on any changes to idle speed being made through all these changes, are you making any? And also, going up 100 rpm isn't a bad thing, and can also help some with idle temps. Most of my cars idle at 900-950 to give you an idea. How are you checking rpm? (since it came up)

Yes, the idle has been going up/down with timing as one would expect. I have been adjusting/compensating for it which is why the initial timing was taken at the same 700 RPM listed below. I'll try raising that a bit. Before I had it at around 850-900.

I'm still not clear on whether or not the numbers you're getting with your light are right, still sounds like something is askew. I noticed you don't have an HEI module in the dizzy, so guess you're running an MSD or similar box? You know some timing lights don't work right with some boxes, right? Maybe take a pic of your timing marks too. On the timing cover. Tell us what kind of box you have, and the settings on the box.

I have an MSD 6AL box. I don't know how it's set up. I did read that some timing lights don't play well with MSD, but my two both seem to work, as did the one Richie used. What would it show if it wasn't working, what would I see?

What I suspect more, based on the fact that my timing curve numbers vary a bit, is that something in my advance is varying a bit and/or my eyes vary a bit. I have an aftermarket balancer with timing marks to 50* reading against a stock cover. I often find that the timing seems to vary by 1 or even 2* depending on my angle. I try to be consistent with where I'm standing when I read it, but it does seem to vary.

For example, here are two sets of measurements (no vacuum advance added):
Initial 14 @ 700 RPM, then
22 @ 1,500
30 @ 2,000
36 @ 3,500

Initial 10 @ 700 RPM, then
20 @ 1,500
27 @ 2,000
35 @ 3,500

When I removed 4* of initial, shouldn't I see a linear 4* drop all along they way?


I'm measuring RPM with an old Sears Engine Analyzer like this one:




Misc Pics:



Balancer (from below):

[BILTIT]

I had a timing light that didnt like my ignition box, showed much less timing than was truly there. I realized it because the engine would start breaking up when above 3000rpm (too much timing). Tried a different timing light and was showing 10+ more degrees than the first light.

[AdamIsAdam]

Looked into that. Found this. Which seems to state most basic lights are ok.

http://www.msdignition.com/page.aspx?id=3306

[TheSilverBuick]

One time I saw four timing lights hooked up to Larry Larson's Nova (Drag Week 2011!) and there was a 5º spread on what they were reporting!!

My craftsman dial back light hasn't led me astray yet. It matches up with the megasquirt's commanded timing every time, and it's easily back checked against the crank trigger wheel tooth count and degree marks on harmonic balancer.

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by TheSilverBuick

One time I saw four timing lights hooked up to Larry Larson's Nova (Drag Week 2011!) and there was a 5º spread on what they were reporting!!

My craftsman dial back light hasn't led me astray yet. It matches up with the megasquirt's commanded timing every time, and it's easily back checked against the crank trigger wheel tooth count and degree marks on harmonic balancer.

That's just crazy talk! I have two lights, both basic, one an old Craftsman from 1983 (also think I paid $19.99 as stated earlier, still original box, i'll check for price tag!) and one newer one from about 8 years ago. I'll check them both.

To me what's most important is that they both/all show the same movements. Meaning, even if they are off by 5*, if they move up 20* in movement from initial to max, then that's ok. It's if one moves by 25* and the other 20 that we have a problem. I'll check.

BTW, I have been using the same light for all my testing. the old one.

But can anyone answer my last question above:

For example, here are two sets of measurements (no vacuum advance added):
Initial 14 @ 700 RPM, then
22 @ 1,500
30 @ 2,000
36 @ 3,500

Initial 10 @ 700 RPM, then
20 @ 1,500
27 @ 2,000
35 @ 3,500

When I removed 4* of initial, shouldn't I see a linear 4* drop all along they way?

[Squidward]

Just a guess, but maybe sticky advance weights, or you were right on the cusp of pulling in a degree or two of mechanical timing when you set your 14 init?

[mchell]

Everyone's magic bullet for cooling is NOT the same.....I futzed around with mine for many years ... Only to find out that the radiator made the biggest difference... This was after all the usual bull:
Snake waters
Thermostats
Pumps
Clearancing impeller
Fuel
Timing/curves/distributors
Carbs
Intakes
Separate trans coolers
Fans
Clutches
Etc...etc...etc...etc...etc

Had my radiator take a dump and tried a two row 1.25 inch tube aluminum radiator and wham, 25degree drop...that was years ago, never had a problem since

You have to find what works for your combo...and that's where the game starts!