[unruhjonny]

I have pondered this in one form or another for some time, so I figured I'd ask opinions of the masses...

To me it seems (although understandably to a point) that the 1971-1974 L78 (specifically manually shifted cars) really pale in comparision to same year 455 cars.

I get that the 455HO & SD455 cars were special, but I wonder if I might be the only one here who would rather a four speed L78 car over an automatic L75 car?

I was also wondering if anyone here has period tests of L78 cars versus L75 or HO/SD cars?

The reason why I ask this has to do with a picture I recently saw:
(man that 1971 Formula 400 is digging in!!)

[necdb3]

The biggest and baddest engines of their year will always dominate the masses for value and all, but a 4spd is real plus.

[pontiacstogo]

Not sure about the performance side of the equation, but in 74 at least the non-SD 455 wasn't available with a manual. Most (not all obviously) of the 455's I've seen are pretty loaded whereas most (again not all) of the 400 4-speeds were thin on options - mine has custom interior and 8 track but pretty much nothing else. The stock 3.42 rear in the 400 4-speeds would have to help too.

At the end of the day, it's personal preference I guess. I kid myself that the original purchaser of my T/A bought it as a 'stripper' but in reality they were probably just on a tight budget .

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by pontiacstogo

At the end of the day, it's personal preference I guess. I kid myself that the original purchaser of my T/A bought it as a 'stripper' but in reality they were probably just on a tight budget .

I would love, love, love to see performance numbers for nicely opted 71-74 400/4spd cars...
My hunch is that your 400/4spd was quicker than a great deal of the 455/at cars built around the same time.

Does anyone know if there were period tests of 400/4spd cars printed in any magazines?

[bird72]

I think the market will be kinder to these cars sooner than later. They should sell same league as auto D port 455. 71-72 were nice years on 400s with pretty good heads. 1971 96's are really nice performance builders, screw in, all exhaust holes, big valve both sides. I would personally choose a 4 speed 71-72 400 over a 455 D port auto. The 3.07 vs 3.42 is the equalizer and spirited driving more possible, with that and 4 speed max use of engine tq by good driver, vs auto slog unless set up right (and then we are not stock). And subtle build internals on 400 (forged, balance, comp bump, etc) can make a 400 run in good HP territory (350-400) easy sleezy.

[Formulas]

Less power loss through a 4 speed and usually a steeper rear gear i think goes a long way towards making up ground vrs automatic and larger cubes in pure stock form

An automatic multiplies torque via the torque converter but sacrifices HP to get it

In pure stock form you dont have alot of HP to waste

.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by bird72

... 71-72 were nice years on 400s with pretty good heads. 1971 96's are really nice performance builders, screw in, all exhaust holes, big valve both sides. ...

there is a recent thread here which shows flow on the 7K3 (1972-L78) heads - and it's almost shocking how well they flow.

It seems to me that as far as engines are concerned, PMD went in two year intervals;
1967-1968: high compression; 1968 saw only modifications to improve upon 1967 stuff...
1969-1970: high compression; carbs revised with POE added
1971-1972: compression dropped to 8:1; POE modified; 1972 saw hardened seats
1973-1974: EGR's introduced; carbs revised for attached choke coils; POE removed
1975... further drop in compression; catalytic converters behind y-pipes...

then looking at (firebird) drivetrains, the changes went like this:
1969: std 3.55:1 gearing, optional 3.90:1 gearing
1970: std 3.55: gearing, optional 3.73:1 gearing
1971: std 3.42:1 gearing, optional 3.73:1 gearing
1972: std 3.42:1 gearing, optional(?) 3.73:1 gearing*
1973: std 3.42 gearing, no optional "performance" gearing
1974: std 3.42 gearing, no optional "performance" gearing
1975... I think the best gearing you could get was 3.23:1

* = I had long understood that there was no performance gear set available for 1972, but the HPP article I often reference gives a 3.73:1 gear ratio posi code... so I guess it was available?

There's a definite decline of sorts...

[Judge273]

Is this a future value question or a what I like question or what can I get for a good price?

Not sure performance is the issue when cruising these days.

A 350 is a fun highway car and sounds good too. Days of street racing is moot as a hellcat leaves all in dust.

Tim Dye put a no mile black 70 L78 Formula in his museum. A recent 71 Formula survivor sold for decent money if this is a value question.

[unruhjonny]

this has less to do with value or future value, and more about me stating an opinion, and looking for opinions on 71-74 400 cars, and any possible period road tests which might do an apples to apples type performance comparison.

eg:

Are there any road tests for 1974 L78/4spd & 1974 L75 455(all auto)?
(Formula or Trans Am)

Are there any road tests for 1973 Formula 400/4spd?
IIRC there are Trans Am road tests...

Are there any 1971/1972 Formula 400/4spd road tests?

[bird72]

Originally Posted by Judge273

Is this a future value question or a what I like question or what can I get for a good price?

Not sure performance is the issue when cruising these days.

A 350 is a fun highway car and sounds good too. Days of street racing is moot as a hellcat leaves all in dust.

Tim Dye put a no mile black 70 L78 Formula in his museum. A recent 71 Formula survivor sold for decent money if this is a value question.

OP asked preference I believe, but it really is all 3 questions you mention.


I find F350 another discussion and they are dog day as stock with looks only fun factor. I seriously looked into what a 350 performance build would entail and it is another bad math deal and problematic in many ways. A 350P is not a 350C and the heads are the killer on the 71-72 350P's. Add in that 2V and flat cam. The might as well throw a 400 in logic is math valid. An F350 on the bay will suffer none with an engine change out. All just IMO.

[Norwood]

Originally Posted by Judge273

Not sure performance is the issue when cruising these days.

A 350 is a fun highway car and sounds good too. Days of street racing is moot as a hellcat leaves all in dust.

Mike you mention The Hellcat but it dosent take something of that statute. My sons 6 cyl Camaro with the AC on would post a faster 1/4 mile time than my 70 RA3 4sp Trans am. But no where near a cool.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by Norwood

Mike you mention The Hellcat but it dosent take something of that statute. My sons 6 cyl Camaro with the AC on would post a faster 1/4 mile time than my 70 RA3 4sp Trans am. But no where near a cool.

scoffing aside, what has your son done to his Camaro?

Your TA should be significantly faster than his Camaro...

My Cobalt would make that slow-maro look like he forgot to his the gas...
And even though my Cobalt might be faster than my Firebird, my Firebird is much funner, and (to me) much cooler

[Norwood]

6 cyl Camaros turn mid to high 13s all day long. Find me a published time for a stock 70 Trans Am that is that not a Pure Stock. Ive driven both cars the Camaro dosent have the kick of the TA but it will cross the line first.

[Judge273]

My personal opinion is when Norwood and the crew cruise around. We get passed and the thumbs are high, windows are open taking pix. Listening to our rumbling cars I imagine....

Same at the car shows it all about the body style and the way they sit.

I personally enjoy the way the F body holds the road.

BTW: SD, 455 HO, 455, 400, 350 F bodies cruising down Ohio roads to TA Nats...is all for the fun of the ride.

[unruhjonny]

ok, you made me look it up;
Stock to stock, the Camaro V6 1LE (top dog) is 5.1 in 0-60, and 13.7 in the quarter mile, vs the stock (2008-2010!) Cobalt SS which was tested at 5.5 second for 0-60, and the quarter mile being elapsed in 13.9 seconds;
So stock to stock, 0.4 seconds in 0-60, and 0.2 seconds in the quarter mile...

But you'ld be hard pressed to find a single Cobalt SS still running a 260hp/260tq tune - even the GMS1 officially put it at 280hp & 320tq (period sourced cited a narrowing on the factory airbox setup as the reason why the Cobalt had 280hp while the Solstice had 290hp).

So I guess that Camaro might be faster than I thought... but still I would think that your TA should be able to outgun it.

[PurelyGTO68]

In the early 80s I had a choice of purchasing a 4 speed L78 or auto L75 on two separate occasions. I chose the 4 speed car both times.

Similar story for my uncle....he purchased a 73 with the 400 manual trans (HD 3 speed) instead of another similar car with the 455 auto. My step father made similar choice for his GTO.....chose the 4 speed car instead of an auto even though the auto car was in nicer condition.

Repeat for many of my friends during that time. Manual trans was almost universally preferred over auto when given the choice.

Still that way for my family today. My wife and kids all prefer manual trans when given a choice except in their pickup trucks.

I realize the autos perform better at the drag strip.....still would rather shift manually.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[unruhjonny]

/\ thanks for chiming in!

[77 Canamman]

All this talk about a modern car running faster than a esteemed vintage musclecar is moot. Even a friggin Camry will give most vintage musclecars fits. Modern vehicles are faster than ever, and getting faster every year, due to more power, and less weight.

Very, very, few modern rides are even remotely interesting, let alone cool. That's where the vintage iron always wins.

[TA455HO]

My wife's somewhat older 2008 Lexus RX400H (SUV) is scary quick and fast. The Hybrid electric motors are pulling so hard with the front wheels that it actually gets a bit odd feeling for me having almost exclusively driven RWD vehicles. But, I think it would give my TA a run for its money.

Chad

[John V.]

I am always amazed at what modern cars have for NET HP, very impressive when compared with the advertised GROSS HP for the stock musclecars from my youth. And they can get triple the MPG to boot. And they will all hold up for years longer and live for tens of thousands more miles. With less maintenance.

I can't explain why I love the musclecars from the '60s and early '70s. It defies logic. I just do.

To answer the question, I will always choose a 4 spd over auto. But I will always want the big cubes too. I have said this about the '70 Judge. I would much rather have one with the 455/4 spd over a D port RA. The RAIV is a closer decision. But in all cases, if it has the auto trans, I'll think it is nice, just not for me.

Personally, I have not noticed that a 400/4 spd pales in comparison to same model with 455/auto trans. I do sense that a TA with base 455 is preferred over any Formula (except SD perhaps) for most hobbyists. The perception is that a TA is a superior model. Same when comparing a GTO to a Lemans. Doesn't always make logical sense.

In the end, you pays yer money and you makes yer choice. Go with what floats your boat.