[bulletpruf]

Fellas -

Getting geared up to get my car ready for the PS drag season and have a few questions. Basic combination is 1970 RAIV GTO, 4 sp, 3.90 gear, manual steering and brakes. Engine will be built using a non-matching RAIV block, nodular crank, Eagle or Scat h-beam rods, Diamond pistons (NHRA legal), 2.5" exhaust, points swapped for electronic. Heads are virgin 614s, and will likely use Manley valves. Stock intake and exhaust manifolds. Will go with max compression allowed (11.?:1) and run racing gas. PY member will do all the machine work, build, and dyno the engine.

Some questions -

How much hp do I need to be competitive (low 12's, I think)? 450 gross?

Can I run an M22? If so, is there any advantage? Strength but maybe more friction? I have an M21 for the car, but no big deal to swap for M22 gears.

What about the carb? Can I run an auto carb (270) or do I have to run the (much more expensive and hard to find) manual carb?

Any recommendations on the cam? I know I don't have much room to play with.

Any ideas on how much weight difference there is between bench seat and buckets/console?

Dan runs 14 x 7 Rallys on his 70 GTO. I like the look of steelies and dog dishes, but they're 14 x 6. I happen to have a set of 14 x 7 Rally IIs - assuming the extra inch will help out with the traction. Thoughts?

Also, if I build max effort for Dan Jensen/Bob Boden's PSMCDR, am I still legal for the Pure Stock Drags, which run with the F.A.S.T. cars?

3.90 vs. 4.33 gear? Car came with 4.33 from the factory, but has 3.90 now.

Thanks in advance for any input.

Scott

[gloryrestoparts]

Scott,
You may want to contact Mark Weymouth, he's a member here and I believe has officially the fastest Pure Stock Pontiac with his 70 RAIV Judge. (yes other poncho's have gone faster, but they didn't do it at Stanton during the shootouts). Calling Dan is another option. and then the general information about the Pure Stock Drags was recently put in several articles in HPP by Dan and Mark. I do know there will be some rules changes for the 2009 season and it wouldn't shock me if they are significant based on the, um, discussion in the Pure Stock boards on v8buick.

Some of your questions I can in fact answer. You can run an M-22 or M-21. Or an M-21 with M-22 internals. You can run an M-20 if you wanted also. :-)

For the carb, you can run any identical cfm carb. basically you can't run an 800cfm one if it wasn't there from the factory.

for the wheels, one thing to consider is weight. a 7in wide wheel will weigh more than a 6in wide. The G series tires fit fine on 6" wide rims and after playing around with air pressure and launch technique, 2.0 or sub 2.0 60ft will be attained. Also Jeff Sawruk weighed equal width Rallye II and steelies. Steel wheels weighed less. I forgot the exact amounts, but it was a noticeable difference.

I think Mark has 4.33s in his Judge. Not sure what Bruno has in his 69 RAIV GTO or his RAIV T/A for that matter.

The Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race (PSMCDR) is only Pure Stock cars. They run the 3rd weekend after labor day in Stanton, MI. Now the FAST races also have a Factory Stock class. This is a class that is run by the Pure Stock guys (Dan, his brother Dennis, Mark, COPO Pete Simpson usually run the tech. Although I did get some tech done by Greg Gessler last year) and uses the rule setup for the PSMCDR. Basically Factory Stock and Pure Stock are identical. But if it's a race with a Factory Stock class, then it's put on by the FAST guys and Dan is there running a car. The FAST events occur at various tracks on the east coast and one in Martin, Michigan. I think they are adding some events in the midwest this year too. www.fastraces.org

Chris

[Lloyd-TX]

Hey Scott - nice build. Can't wait to hear how it performs.

Since I haven't done a PSD deal yet, I can't answer very many of your questions, but according to the rules you MUST run the OE size and style wheels for your car. As you know, 7" rims didn't come along on GTO's until '71.

DJ will have the best advice, let me know if you need his contact info.

[Lloyd-TX]

Chris is right about those HPP articles - great stuff!

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by gloryrestoparts

Scott,
You may want to contact Mark Weymouth, he's a member here and I believe has officially the fastest Pure Stock Pontiac with his 70 RAIV Judge. (yes other poncho's have gone faster, but they didn't do it at Stanton during the shootouts). Calling Dan is another option. and then the general information about the Pure Stock Drags was recently put in several articles in HPP by Dan and Mark. I do know there will be some rules changes for the 2009 season and it wouldn't shock me if they are significant based on the, um, discussion in the Pure Stock boards on v8buick.

Some of your questions I can in fact answer. You can run an M-22 or M-21. Or an M-21 with M-22 internals. You can run an M-20 if you wanted also. :-)

For the carb, you can run any identical cfm carb. basically you can't run an 800cfm one if it wasn't there from the factory.

for the wheels, one thing to consider is weight. a 7in wide wheel will weigh more than a 6in wide. The G series tires fit fine on 6" wide rims and after playing around with air pressure and launch technique, 2.0 or sub 2.0 60ft will be attained. Also Jeff Sawruk weighed equal width Rallye II and steelies. Steel wheels weighed less. I forgot the exact amounts, but it was a noticeable difference.

I think Mark has 4.33s in his Judge. Not sure what Bruno has in his 69 RAIV GTO or his RAIV T/A for that matter.

The Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race (PSMCDR) is only Pure Stock cars. They run the 3rd weekend after labor day in Stanton, MI. Now the FAST races also have a Factory Stock class. This is a class that is run by the Pure Stock guys (Dan, his brother Dennis, Mark, COPO Pete Simpson usually run the tech. Although I did get some tech done by Greg Gessler last year) and uses the rule setup for the PSMCDR. Basically Factory Stock and Pure Stock are identical. But if it's a race with a Factory Stock class, then it's put on by the FAST guys and Dan is there running a car. The FAST events occur at various tracks on the east coast and one in Martin, Michigan. I think they are adding some events in the midwest this year too. www.fastraces.org

Chris

Chris -

Thanks for the detailed information. I have been in touch with Mark and he was very helpful and forthcoming. Need to look him up again now that I'm getting ready to get started on the engine.

Any ideas on what the rules changes might be? Would hate to build the motor and then have to redo it based on new rules.

Good news on the carbs , and good info on the wheels.

Mark does run a 4.33 and I think Bruno runs a 3.90 in his GTO.

Thanks,

Scott

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Lloyd-TX

Hey Scott - nice build. Can't wait to hear how it performs.

Since I haven't done a PSD deal yet, I can't answer very many of your questions, but according to the rules you MUST run the OE size and style wheels for your car. As you know, 7" rims didn't come along on GTO's until '71.

DJ will have the best advice, let me know if you need his contact info.

Hey Lloyd -

Thanks for the info. Looks like 14 x 6 steelies for me!

Scott

[goatless]

Originally Posted by bulletpruf

Looks like 14 x 6 steelies for me!

Scott

Being "stuck" with a 14X6 and G70 isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I was talking with some of the heavy hitters in FAST about wheel and tire combo's. The general consensus was that there was little real world advantage to a 15X7 wheel with a 60 series tire over a 14X6 with a G70. Weight, rotational force and rolling resistance all come into play and work against any gain in traction from the wider tire. These little Wide-Oval/Polyglas tires hook pretty well! Steve Vanderwall was able to pull a 1.60 sixty foot on a set of G70-14's! Many guys are able to lift one or both front tires!

Another note- Conventional wisdom had guys keeping the pressure fairly high in the bias ply tires. The thinking was that it increased traction as it kept the tread from cupping.
Lately many of the guys in FAST have been lowering the pressure in the rear tires and have been seeing the sixty foot times drop as well. My last time out I dropped the pressure down to 24 psi and my 60's dropped from around 2.0 down to 1.90. That's in a 4100 lb. car with a 3.31 rear.

Note the wrinkling sidewall.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by goatless

Being "stuck" with a 14X6 and G70 isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I was talking with some of the heavy hitters in FAST about wheel and tire combo's. The general consensus was that there was little real world advantage to a 15X7 wheel with a 60 series tire over a 14X6 with a G70. Weight, rotational force and rolling resistance all come into play and work against any gain in traction from the wider tire. These little Wide-Oval/Polyglas tires hook pretty well! Steve Vanderwall was able to pull a 1.60 sixty foot on a set of G70-14's! Many guys are able to lift one or both front tires!

Another note- Conventional wisdom had guys keeping the pressure fairly high in the bias ply tires. The thinking was that it increased traction as it kept the tread from cupping.
Lately many of the guys in FAST have been lowering the pressure in the rear tires and have been seeing the sixty foot times drop as well. My last time out I dropped the pressure down to 24 psi and my 60's dropped from around 2.0 down to 1.90. That's in a 4100 lb. car with a 3.31 rear.

Note the wrinkling sidewall.

Good info and pretty impressive Lemans!

[bulletpruf]

Dropped off the motor off at the machine shop today - Central Va Machine Shop - owner is a hardcore Pontiac guy and PY member. Looks like the block will need a few sleeves, but knew that would be the case. Little more parts scrounging to do - carb, and maybe dizzy - and need to start getting the rest of the car ready now. Have a few other cars coming together now ('66 Fairlane GT convt w/390 and 4 sp, 71 401 Javelin Trans Am clone), but should be ready soon.

Thanks,

Scott

[rustedgoat]

I weighed some 71 stuff on a bathroom scale
bench seat 95 lbs this had no headrests on it

buckets 108 lbs 2 x 54lbs each complete
console no shifter 7 lbs

rear seat top 20 lbs
rear seat bottom 22 lbs

These are some weights I saw posted somewhere
ralley II 15x7 24 lbs ea without the trim ring and center caps
ralley II 14x6 20.5 lbs ea w center cap + trim ring
steel 14x6 18 lbs ea factory stamped wheel

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by rustedgoat

I weighed some 71 stuff on a bathroom scale
bench seat 95 lbs this had no headrests on it

buckets 108 lbs 2 x 54lbs each complete
console no shifter 7 lbs

rear seat top 20 lbs
rear seat bottom 22 lbs

These are some weights I saw posted somewhere
ralley II 15x7 24 lbs ea without the trim ring and center caps
ralley II 14x6 20.5 lbs ea w center cap + trim ring
steel 14x6 18 lbs ea factory stamped wheel

That's good info.

Thanks,

Scott

[bulletpruf]

Found a carb yesterday - going with a 0263 (1970 400 manual trans). 273s are just too darn expensive, and the 263 is legal for PSD.

Found out that I can use a stock replacement distributor - something you can buy at Napa. That will save me some $$$ as well. I will be using a Pertronix kit, which is also allowed.

My new 4.33 gears arrived from Fabcraft last week.

Now that it's warming up some, I need to do some wrenching on the car. I bought a two post lift for my garage, but my '66 Fairlane GT convt. will be occupying it first.

Thanks,

Scott

[67drake]

Great thread!
I admire guys doing this type of thing. Though my own car does not have the potential that yours does,I am at least going the same direction with it. I want to make it as fast as possible,but still retain a stock look. I do hit the track quite often,but I am just competing against my own times,trying to get them better.I don't worry about the guy in the other lane.
One thing I have run into is that some people just don't "get it".
Them:" So you race this GTO?"
Me: "Yes. My best so far is 14.3 at 98"
Them: "That's not THAT fast."
Me: "I know,but it's the original engine,trans ect,and almost all stock,right now I'm even running 215/75/14 whitewalls."
Them:" No HEI,headers,ect? Would'nt that help?"
Me: "Maybe,but the car did'nt come with those"
Them: "But I thought you were trying to make it FASTER?"
Me: "Yes,but still keep it stock"
Them: "Huh? Why? I don't understand"
My engine builder keeps bugging me to run headers when I see him,but I have told him that if anything I won't go farther then RA manifolds. The budget is holding me back this year a little,but the whitewalls will be gone this summer I hope!
Good luck,and post your times when you get your car out to the track.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by 67drake

Great thread!
I admire guys doing this type of thing. Though my own car does not have the potential that yours does,I am at least going the same direction with it. I want to make it as fast as possible,but still retain a stock look. I do hit the track quite often,but I am just competing against my own times,trying to get them better.I don't worry about the guy in the other lane.
One thing I have run into is that some people just don't "get it".
Them:" So you race this GTO?"
Me: "Yes. My best so far is 14.3 at 98"
Them: "That's not THAT fast."
Me: "I know,but it's the original engine,trans ect,and almost all stock,right now I'm even running 215/75/14 whitewalls."
Them:" No HEI,headers,ect? Would'nt that help?"
Me: "Maybe,but the car did'nt come with those"
Them: "But I thought you were trying to make it FASTER?"
Me: "Yes,but still keep it stock"
Them: "Huh? Why? I don't understand"
My engine builder keeps bugging me to run headers when I see him,but I have told him that if anything I won't go farther then RA manifolds. The budget is holding me back this year a little,but the whitewalls will be gone this summer I hope!
Good luck,and post your times when you get your car out to the track.

Sounds like you're having fun! FYI - you could drop in a correct '71 455 HO and race it at the PS drags...

Scott

[goatless]

Originally Posted by 67drake

My engine builder keeps bugging me to run headers when I see him,but I have told him that if anything I won't go farther then RA manifolds.

Next time you see him, tell him that there is a '74 T/A that runs 11.80's @ 118 through LOG manifolds. I expect that he'll be running down in the 11.50's once he gets it dialed in this year.

[bulletpruf]

Carb has been sent off for a PSD build.

Purchased a 2011 distributor from a PY member. Searching for a Crane kit to convert it from points to electronic, but these are VERY hard to find. Please PM me if you have one to sell or know where I can get one.

Fairlane convt. is in paint jail and looks like the 66 SS396 Chevelle and 71 GTX are both sold, so I've freed up time and space for working on it.

Scott

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by bulletpruf

Purchased a 2011 distributor from a PY member. Searching for a Crane kit to convert it from points to electronic, but these are VERY hard to find. Please PM me if you have one to sell or know where I can get one.

Scott

Hey Scott:

Forget the Crane or Pertronix electronic conversions, go for the "Breakerless SE" kit. Works flawlessly, and PY has 'em.

Congrats on your progress!

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by Lloyd-TX

Hey Scott:

Forget the Crane or Pertronix electronic conversions, go for the "Breakerless SE" kit. Works flawlessly, and PY has 'em.

Congrats on your progress!

Thanks, Lloyd. I'll check it out.

Scott

[gloryrestoparts]

you can do what Lloyd suggested or the Crane xr-i is available from several places new such as summit. Roughly $70 IIRC. I have one in my GT-37. Now the interesting news. I've heard from a PSD racer that he's heard the built in rev limiter on the crane unit can be off, sometimes by like 500rpm. It's possible this may be one of the myriad of problems I'm encoutering on my car. cracked balancer is one. bad clutch another. some electrical problems too. oh the joys of troubleshooting. This weekend, weather permitting, I hope to attempt a fix to one of my cars before tearing back into the GT-37.

[bulletpruf]

Originally Posted by gloryrestoparts

you can do what Lloyd suggested or the Crane xr-i is available from several places new such as summit. Roughly $70 IIRC. I have one in my GT-37. Now the interesting news. I've heard from a PSD racer that he's heard the built in rev limiter on the crane unit can be off, sometimes by like 500rpm. It's possible this may be one of the myriad of problems I'm encoutering on my car. cracked balancer is one. bad clutch another. some electrical problems too. oh the joys of troubleshooting. This weekend, weather permitting, I hope to attempt a fix to one of my cars before tearing back into the GT-37.

Since Crane went out of business, no one has had their points to electronic kits. Summit does not have it on their website. Since they were just acquired by another company, perhaps we'll see them back on the shelves in the not so distant future.

Thanks,

Scott