[Jim Zeek]

I have the Butler Performance Pro Series oil pump in my 541. Priming on a drill and fired it up Saturday on a stand with 15w-40 oil I have 90 PSI of pressure. Got water temp up to just over 160 but probably didn't warm oil up that much. Had a few leaks we were watching.
On the drill today I changed the gauge to be sure it was accurate (it was). I drained the oil and filled with 10w-30. It actually picked up 3-4 PSI. It was not warm in my shop (45 degrees). Spoke to Butler and their engine guy said he has had 100 on the drill before. Anyone have experience with this pump? Should pressure be OK at temperature or should I drop back to the M54-DS Standard Pontiac High Vol./ 60 psi Oil Pump.

Trying to sort out any issues before I put motor in the car. Thanks

[Hooter]

I run that same pump in my 535 and with 20/50 Brad Penn I had 100 at start up and after the oil got hot it still carried 60 at idle(checking at dist). Dropped down 10/40 oil and really no change. It's already in my motor so I'm leaving it alone, but was more pressure than I expected. I'm running BME aluminum rods and I believe they recommend 20/50 with conventional oil so not sure if it would hurt dropping down to a thinner oil or not.

[Jim Zeek]

Originally Posted by Hooter

I run that same pump in my 535 and with 20/50 Brad Penn I had 100 at start up and after the oil got hot it still carried 60 at idle(checking at dist). Dropped down 10/40 oil and really no change. It's already in my motor so I'm leaving it alone, but was more pressure than I expected. I'm running BME aluminum rods and I believe they recommend 20/50 with conventional oil so not sure if it would hurt dropping down to a thinner oil or not.

What is your pressure at higher RPM's thru the finish line?

[mike leech]

I saw 82 hot at rpm with 5 30. I changed the spring/shim. Was still 74.

Too dang much pressure. 55 at rpm/hot is where I wanna be

[hp 400 dave]

My 402 runs 80lbs at 8,000 rpm with 30wt Redline oil. Around 28 to 30lbs at idle after a pass. I see the pressure around 60lbs at idle went cold.

[Elarson]

Personally, I like lots of pressure and flow for the sake of keeping parts alive. The Grocery Getter with a Melling Select 80 psi pump and 10w-40 would run slightly over 100 psi before warmup on a moderate day (70-80 degF). Never had bearing issues. I think that pump is supposed to be good for something in the 12-15 gpm(?) range.

Funny car demanded 200 psi AND a second front feed before we could get enough flow to keep bearings cool. We're probably pushing over 25 gpm through it, and wish we had more.

There is concern over higher pressure consuming too much horsepower, but I'm not convinced.

1) hydraulic horsepower equation 15 gpm x 100 psi / 1714 = .9 hp If the gear pump is 90% efficient, that is still just about 1 horsepower.

2) Aviad has a pump dyno that they use to test dry sump pumps. They tell me they can run 4-stages (1 pressure + 3 scavenge) with a 1.5 hp electric motor.

3) I'm using a 3-stage Moroso dry sump pump on one of my aircraft engine test rigs. They told me that 3 horsepower was plenty to run the pump. I used a 5 hp electric motor and it acts like the pumps arent even there (no speed or sound change when the pumps achieve prime and pump oil instead of air).

Food for thought...

Eric

[slowbird]

Its not high pressure consuming hp its oil flying everywhere creating tons of windage issues.

[badgto]

I had high pressure exactly like that before and went thru the traps. Looked down and the needle had wrap around back to zero and freak out thinking I had no pressure. It got fixed right away. Running 50 thru the traps now.

[Hooter]

Once the engine is heat soaked, 90 through the traps at 7,000

[grnmnstr]

Wow, you guys run high pressure!! I shouldn't talk, because I use to run it the same way.

We were going to put the Butler pump in the new motor, but went with the Luhn Performance oil pump.

Oil pressure is about 50 cold. Top end is about 55 psi (7800 RPM).

On the dyno, 5500 to 7500, 53-55psi. This is with 20/50 mineral based oil. Yeah, yeah, heavy oil, but I'm not looking for every .001 or 1/10 hp, just longevity and consistency.

[Hooter]

The 565 going back in my street car it getting a Luhn pump.

[aaronman]

We typically run around 60-70 psi HOT in the lights at 7000 rpm. I have found additional pressure causes windage and oil aeration issues that caused BIG problems.

[Jim Zeek]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Personally, I like lots of pressure and flow for the sake of keeping parts alive. The Grocery Getter with a Melling Select 80 psi pump and 10w-40 would run slightly over 100 psi before warmup on a moderate day (70-80 degF). Never had bearing issues. I think that pump is supposed to be good for something in the 12-15 gpm(?) range.


Eric

That's what mike told me in a message the other day. I sold the pump that came with the motor with the pan because it wouldn't fit in the car. not sure which way to go. if I switch pumps I will have get a new pick up made before I can put it in.

[Elarson]

I'd suggest talking to Mark at Luhn. I've had an in-depth talk with him about oil systems and I think his research and testing on pump pickups is probably the most comprehensive out there.

Eric

[2manyponchos]

Been working on some potential lube pump improvements for awhile. Prototype suction tubes due in a couple weeks and hoping to get some performance bench tests done. Ultimately depends on flow and engine requirements. Factory suction tubes look to be cavitation limited around 10-11 gpm. Not saying problems occur at that point, but that will be the knee in the curve where pressure starts decaying. Also working on a GT Lube system model, but limited time with all my other irons in the fire.

[Elarson]

We've talked to a lot of people about oiling systems. Every credible source who has done testing comes to the same conclusion....that pump output is most dominantly linked to the pickup and suction tube configuration. Cavitation puts an upper limit on oil flow and also sends an air-oil mix downstream that isn't as good as solid oil.

Eric

[Curious George]

I have the same results using that pump. 90psi with drill and 100 cold start. It does drop to about 65 cold. Swap to 10-40 and very little change if any. Was debating changing spring if it needs to come back out.

[LMSRACER]

This is who makes that Oil Pump for Butlers.
http://www.schumannsdynamicperformance.com/

I'm sure they could answer any questions or concerns that anyone might have.

As far as I know, they won't sell that pump to anyone but Butlers.

Have a good one,
Larry S.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Elarson

Personally, I like lots of pressure and flow for the sake of keeping parts alive. The Grocery Getter with a Melling Select 80 psi pump and 10w-40 would run slightly over 100 psi before warmup on a moderate day (70-80 degF). Never had bearing issues. I think that pump is supposed to be good for something in the 12-15 gpm(?) range.

Funny car demanded 200 psi AND a second front feed before we could get enough flow to keep bearings cool. We're probably pushing over 25 gpm through it, and wish we had more.

There is concern over higher pressure consuming too much horsepower, but I'm not convinced.

1) hydraulic horsepower equation 15 gpm x 100 psi / 1714 = .9 hp If the gear pump is 90% efficient, that is still just about 1 horsepower.

Food for thought...

Eric

Most common 1/2" drill motors are typically 1/2 hp or less... I've never had my Craftsman stall priming oil (its rated 3 amps at 125volts and 600 rpm)... yes it will slow down some at 100 psi plus... a recent desoto hemi I did with upgraded pump had gauge over 120 psi mark with straight 30w oil. With timed oil feed to rockers from cam it takes a lot of time running the drill to insure everything is getting oiled... drill got warm but not as hot as I've had it get doing other projects(like lag bolting my deck). Recently did a sbc and same drill barely tugged harder with 80 psi oil pressure, again straight 30w oil at room temp.

So... I have to agree that high oil psi doesnt require alot of hp to maintain. Initial load from "dry" to primed is more load than once oil gets moving. But it cant be much more hp.
So... doing some math... my drill = ? torque... 3Amps x 125 volts equals 375 watts. Watts to hp... 375 watts/746 conversion factor = @.502 HP
So .5 hp at 600 rpm is (5252 x .5)/600rpm = 4.37666..... ft lbs torque

But it raises this thought... I think we have all been told high oil psi will twist a stock pump drive. Some have said they have twisted heavy duty shafts and said it was from running the "80 psi pump".

HMMM...less than 4.5 ft lbs of torque twists pumpshafts?

NO... it has to be something else.

If my drill slowed to 60 rpm from the sudden load of 100 psi oil pressure the tq would be @ 43.7 ft lbs(dont seem to pull my hand that hard though).

And if drill slowed to only 6 rpm it would be @437 ft lbs(which would likely break my hand, tie me up, then further break me, before it twisted the shaft)...

BUT... at say 6000 crank rpm the pumpshaft is turning 3000 rpm. If its still taking 1/2 hp to drive the pump thats only @.875 ft lbs of torque. IMO its taking a lot more than 1/2 HP in a running engine though!

Something else besides oil psi must be trying to stop the pump from turning, because as my drill and math shows, very little power is required to turn the pump itself against say a 100 psi oil pressure load at low rpm... doubt its friction.

HMMM... I'm only speculating, could it be that cavitation is creating a force in the pump that is far far greater than only the force required to drive the pump against a high oil pressure???
I'm thinking it would only take a fraction of a second to create a shaft speed difference between the gears(or rotors) that would shock the shaft and impart a significant torque load(much like an impact wrench)...

Seeing solid oil cant compress but aerated oil can, little compressions of air in the pump (between the gears) could be changing the speed (even if only fractions of a second) between the pumpshaft side of the pump and the driven side of the pump...thus an "impact wrench"effect working against the pumpshaft.

IMO biggest difference between dry sump vs wet sump is not windage. Both could spray same amount of oil around but the dry sump system allows time to un-aerate the oil before being pumped at high pressure, while the scavenge pumps arent intended to make significant pressure.

Sorry for long post... tough to wrap your head around what might be going on. Not something you would see on an oil pressure gauge for sure.

[johnta1]

How much volume of oil is pumped at drill speed compared to 6000 RPM engine speed?