[Gach]

It’s really up to the individual if they want to put that kind of money into a stock block with no caps. It also depends on what the intended use is going to be. The scary part is seeing what 64speed just went through with the pin hole. Can you imagine if it was one were they had to put/fine caps for it or bite the bullet and go steel caps. The good thing about this thread is to make guys think of the possibilities after investing that kind of money. Hopefully it helps them to make the right decision. Rather then have guys encourage them

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Gach

It’s really up to the individual if they want to put that kind of money into a stock block with no caps. It also depends on what the intended use is going to be. The scary part is seeing what 64speed just went through with the pin hole. Can you imagine if it was one were they had to put/fine caps for it or bite the bullet and go steel caps. The good thing about this thread is to make guys think of the possibilities after investing that kind of money. Hopefully it helps them to make the right decision. Rather then have guys encourage them

Well said, Gach. I was an engine machinist for years. I have been brought utter garbage then told by the customer that they would not pay for essential repairs and machining because “All you want is my money!” No, numbnuts, I want you to take your garbage away and stop bothering me with it. Unless you are willing to listen to the machinists you use why bother taking them anything? Most of the folks here understand that we are dealing with blocks, iron heads and OE cranks that were last produced forty-six years ago. Cylinder walls are going to have corrosion AND erosion both; main caps get damaged and lost. IF you are willing to pay for QUALITY machine work by all means pursue replacing main caps with billet or cast steel main caps; just keep in mind it is going to cost you. There is a tremendous amount of wisdom in Tom S.’s logic.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I get it. But they are not making anymore PMD blocks and if someone wants to go through the trouble and expense to save a Pontiac block or build one to run hard more power to them. Its a free country and if they can afford it why not ?
The one I had splayed caps (and the front cap) installed on is a 73 400 block Whittmore had under his bench. Std bore so I went for it. It was so long ago it was early in the IA1 era from Indian Adventures.
Thing is, its not very cost effective. If a 2 bolt block is good to 600-650 HP that pretty good. Go through he expense of filling it and billet caps you might get 100HP safely out of it. Although I understand some have made over 750 HP NA and they lived fine.
I bet one could billet cap/fill a block and single turbo it at 5-10lbs and make 700 and it will live a long life if the owner is careful. sft cam it and have fun. Know someone who is planning on just that.
I have a 67 2 bolt block but its .060 over. They are known for being thick and I am still messing around with a inexpensive sonic tester so I might put some Milodon caps on her if enough meat. I have a old FE Ford block I am going to slice a piece of a bore out and see if i can get some accurate thickness readings.
Or bite the bullet and get a good one. I have other uses for a quality sonic checker.

What you ARE assuming is the block has no other flaws in it. Remember, the most recent OE PMD blocks were cast in 1977; that is forty-six years ago. Forty-six years is a long time to have coolant eroding the internal passages of the water jackets, not to mention cavitation in the water jackets. We dealt with 6.9/7.3 IDI diesels for years. We were forced to drill inspection holes in the right bank of these blocks to check for cavitation corrosion in the cylinder walls. 6.9/7.3 IDI blocks have cylinder walls TWICE the thickness of any PMD production block, yet I have had to “junk” blocks because cylinder walls were eaten up with internal corrosion from cavitation. This is on engines that will never see the high side of 4,000 rpm; most are NA. We could install two standard sleeves in a bank or one “super” sleeve per bank. When you open up a bank and discover all four cylinders with severely corroded internal cylinder walls you have no other choice than to scrap that block. It is unfortunate that a new, OE clone block isn’t available for Pontiacs as there are for nearly all of the other marques. This just mean we are going to have to be more cautious in our selecting of blocks to recondition, machine and use. My ‘59 block has 60,000 miles on it. The water jackets are nearly pristine. The water jackets on all my other blocks are good as well because I was the guy who maintained those engines while they were in service. I know the coolant changes were performed regularly because I did them. I have no problem using any of these blocks AFTER a thorough ultrasonic inspection of the cylinder walls and a complete NDT inspection.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

What you ARE assuming is the block has no other flaws in it. Remember, the most recent OE PMD blocks were cast in 1977; that is forty-six years ago. Forty-six years is a long time to have coolant eroding the internal passages of the water jackets, not to mention cavitation in the water jackets. We dealt with 6.9/7.3 IDI diesels for years. We were forced to drill inspection holes in the right bank of these blocks to check for cavitation corrosion in the cylinder walls. 6.9/7.3 IDI blocks have cylinder walls TWICE the thickness of any PMD production block, yet I have had to “junk” blocks because cylinder walls were eaten up with internal corrosion from cavitation. This is on engines that will never see the high side of 4,000 rpm; most are NA. We could install two standard sleeves in a bank or one “super” sleeve per bank. When you open up a bank and discover all four cylinders with severely corroded internal cylinder walls you have no other choice than to scrap that block. It is unfortunate that a new, OE clone block isn’t available for Pontiacs as there are for nearly all of the other marques. This just mean we are going to have to be more cautious in our selecting of blocks to recondition, machine and use. My ‘59 block has 60,000 miles on it. The water jackets are nearly pristine. The water jackets on all my other blocks are good as well because I was the guy who maintained those engines while they were in service. I know the coolant changes were performed regularly because I did them. I have no problem using any of these blocks AFTER a thorough ultrasonic inspection of the cylinder walls and a complete NDT inspection.

Yes it would be nice if we had a aftermarket block that was like a OEM block visually. A lot of people would use a new block that had the appearance of a PMD unit IMO. Just not going to happen so we are left with the aftermarket blocks and their chunk like appearance or completely inspecting a 40+ year old block.. IA2s and MR1s are overkill for the vast majority of street builds but at least we have the choice.
Mine I tried to sell it for 1500$, a steal really. I was not going to give it away so I just finished the engine that originally was to be a 650 HP type build but has been tweaked up a bit to 700 HP or thereabouts.
Sentimental reasons too. Dan Whitmore was the person who taught me the most about Pontiacs and its the last block he ever did. I got it back after he passed away. The cap fitting line bore hone was finished by him and checked out to be dead nuts on by a local machinist. I paid for the bore and deck job twice because he passed away but thats how it went.
At least I know I have a good one because his name was on it. He would not waste his time and customers money building a suspect block. It was one of his personal blocks he tucked away under his bench years ago and only sold it to me after I had trouble finding a good block.
I had a std bore 4 bolt WS block out of a 70 Judge with all the main caps. But I was not going to build it to race and beat on. It should be for a Judge resto and I sold it for that. Got 2200 $ for it.
BTW, what does NDT stand for ?

[Gach]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Yes it would be nice if we had a aftermarket block that was like a OEM block visually. A lot of people would use a new block that had the appearance of a PMD unit IMO. Just not going to happen so we are left with the aftermarket blocks and their chunk like appearance or completely inspecting a 40+ year old block.. IA2s and MR1s are overkill for the vast majority of street builds but at least we have the choice.
Mine I tried to sell it for 1500$, a steal really. I was not going to give it away so I just finished the engine that originally was to be a 650 HP type build but has been tweaked up a bit to 700 HP or thereabouts.
Sentimental reasons too. Dan Whitmore was the person who taught me the most about Pontiacs and its the last block he ever did. I got it back after he passed away. The cap fitting line bore hone was finished by him and checked out to be dead nuts on by a local machinist. I paid for the bore and deck job twice because he passed away but thats how it went.
At least I know I have a good one because his name was on it. He would not waste his time and customers money building a suspect block. It was one of his personal blocks he tucked away under his bench years ago and only sold it to me after I had trouble finding a good block.
I had a std bore 4 bolt WS block out of a 70 Judge with all the main caps. But I was not going to build it to race and beat on. It should be for a Judge resto and I sold it for that. Got 2200 $ for it.
BTW, what does NDT stand for ?

Was that block ultrasonic tested if so post the sonic test sheet. My buddy Mike never had his sonic tested, spent all that money, steel caps block filled and second trip to track it cracked. And it didn’t crack on thrush side of the block. All that after taking 3 years to build it and all that money.

Some of the best Pontiac engine builders have experienced this.

[Gach]

I got it back after he passed away. The cap fitting line bore hone was finished by him and checked out to be dead nuts on by a local machinist. I paid for the bore and deck job twice because he passed away but thats how it went.

.

So you’re just assuming he sonic tested it.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Gach

.

So you’re just assuming he sonic tested it.

Don't put words in my mouth.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Gach

Was that block ultrasonic tested if so post the sonic test sheet. My buddy Mike never had his sonic tested, spent all that money, steel caps block filled and second trip to track it cracked. And it didn’t crack on thrush side of the block. All that after taking 3 years to build it and all that money.

Some of the best Pontiac engine builders have experienced this.

HH, It was his personal block under his bench since the 80s, maybe even the 70s.
So way back in the early 2000s when I asked him if the bores were checked and all he said yes. Dan Whitmore telling me that was good enough for me and there was no reason to have him sonic check it again just so I could have the sheet. He knew if I was going to do this I needed to have a std bore block I could re bore down the road. This was discussed and key to the whole deal..
WE were friends and Dan was more aware of potential problems than just about everyone alive. He was very thorough and his reputation was as good as it got.
He was so anal about this stuff when he filled the block he had a torque plate bolted down to each deck while curing for several months, each side.
If you knew him there was no way he is putting in all that work unless the block is good.

[Gach]

Oh I knew Dan very well, definitely one of the best, as far as I know he didn’t have sonic tester he use to send blocks out, and would give you a copy of the sonic test. Only because your talking a good $2500.00 investment for the right sonic test equipment. Just surprised you didn’t get a copy of yours.

PS: thats why I said you’re assuming that it was done.

[Gach]

I got it back after he passed away. The cap fitting line bore hone was finished by him and checked out to be dead nuts on by a local machinist. I paid for the bore and deck job twice because he passed away but thats how it went.

Sorry just got a little confusing he past before it was finish, part I didn’t get is you saying you paid for bore and deck job twice. So he didn’t do it and you thought he had, or your new guy screwed you and didn’t it again. Confusing?

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Yes it would be nice if we had a aftermarket block that was like a OEM block visually. A lot of people would use a new block that had the appearance of a PMD unit IMO. Just not going to happen so we are left with the aftermarket blocks and their chunk like appearance or completely inspecting a 40+ year old block.. IA2s and MR1s are overkill for the vast majority of street builds but at least we have the choice.
Mine I tried to sell it for 1500$, a steal really. I was not going to give it away so I just finished the engine that originally was to be a 650 HP type build but has been tweaked up a bit to 700 HP or thereabouts.
Sentimental reasons too. Dan Whitmore was the person who taught me the most about Pontiacs and its the last block he ever did. I got it back after he passed away. The cap fitting line bore hone was finished by him and checked out to be dead nuts on by a local machinist. I paid for the bore and deck job twice because he passed away but thats how it went.
At least I know I have a good one because his name was on it. He would not waste his time and customers money building a suspect block. It was one of his personal blocks he tucked away under his bench years ago and only sold it to me after I had trouble finding a good block.
I had a std bore 4 bolt WS block out of a 70 Judge with all the main caps. But I was not going to build it to race and beat on. It should be for a Judge resto and I sold it for that. Got 2200 $ for it.
BTW, what does NDT stand for ?

Non Destructive Testing. Both Brinell and Rockwell testing are destructive in nature; the sample material is destroyed to establish the strength of the sample. NDT includes magnetic particle inspection ( Magnaflux inspection, both wet and dry), eddy current, ultrasonic testing, x-ray inspection, fluorescent dye inspection( Zyglo) and dye penetrant/ developer inspection. Never say never when it comes to an OE appearing aftermarket PMD block. When there is enough demand one will be produced. Many Ford FE fans said it would never happen, yet today there is an aftermarket OE appearing FE Ford engine block. Hey, they produce CGI 7.3 PowerStroke blocks; how does $7,000 grab you?

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

HH, It was his personal block under his bench since the 80s, maybe even the 70s.
So way back in the early 2000s when I asked him if the bores were checked and all he said yes. Dan Whitmore telling me that was good enough for me and there was no reason to have him sonic check it again just so I could have the sheet. He knew if I was going to do this I needed to have a std bore block I could re bore down the road. This was discussed and key to the whole deal..
WE were friends and Dan was more aware of potential problems than just about everyone alive. He was very thorough and his reputation was as good as it got.
He was so anal about this stuff when he filled the block he had a torque plate bolted down to each deck while curing for several months, each side.
If you knew him there was no way he is putting in all that work unless the block is good.

I’m well aware of Dan’s reputation. My personal view is ANY block that is going to be used in a high performance application needs to have the cylinder wall thickness confirmed through ultrasonic inspection. My late friend, Larry Wilham, owned the ‘66 GTO block I talk about. Larry had Mike Keown( another old friend and NHRA World Champion now deceased) ultrasonic inspection this block. That is when the .090 or thinner primary thrust cylinder walls were discovered. Imagine what Larry’s shock would have been if Mike had begun boring and honing this block only to have cylinder walls collapse! This is why I want a block to be ultrasonic tested as well as magnafluxed BEFORE machining begins.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

HH, It was his personal block under his bench since the 80s, maybe even the 70s.
So way back in the early 2000s when I asked him if the bores were checked and all he said yes. Dan Whitmore telling me that was good enough for me and there was no reason to have him sonic check it again just so I could have the sheet. He knew if I was going to do this I needed to have a std bore block I could re bore down the road. This was discussed and key to the whole deal..
WE were friends and Dan was more aware of potential problems than just about everyone alive. He was very thorough and his reputation was as good as it got.
He was so anal about this stuff when he filled the block he had a torque plate bolted down to each deck while curing for several months, each side.
If you knew him there was no way he is putting in all that work unless the block is good.

Troy,
If that is the case you are good.

Stan

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Gach

Sorry just got a little confusing he past before it was finish, part I didn’t get is you saying you paid for bore and deck job twice. So he didn’t do it and you thought he had, or your new guy screwed you and didn’t it again. Confusing?

I paid for all the machine work and he died before he bored and decked it so I had to pay a local guy for a torque plate bore/hone job and to deck it.
He could not bore it with a tq plate so he bored it .010 under than honed the rest with tq plate.

[Gach]

Gotcha

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Non Destructive Testing. Both Brinell and Rockwell testing are destructive in nature; the sample material is destroyed to establish the strength of the sample. NDT includes magnetic particle inspection ( Magnaflux inspection, both wet and dry), eddy current, ultrasonic testing, x-ray inspection, fluorescent dye inspection( Zyglo) and dye penetrant/ developer inspection. Never say never when it comes to an OE appearing aftermarket PMD block. When there is enough demand one will be produced. Many Ford FE fans said it would never happen, yet today there is an aftermarket OE appearing FE Ford engine block. Hey, they produce CGI 7.3 PowerStroke blocks; how does $7,000 grab you?

Never say never ...

OK if someone made us a block something like a 70 RAV block but with a sbc style valley area, 1/8" more meat around the lifer bores, siamessed cylinders, extra rib on the pan rail like 59-60 blocks and ductile iron splayed main caps and thick main webs like a IA2.
That should do it, hey I can dream with the best of them.
Oh, about 2,500$ too.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

I’m well aware of Dan’s reputation. My personal view is ANY block that is going to be used in a high performance application needs to have the cylinder wall thickness confirmed through ultrasonic inspection. My late friend, Larry Wilham, owned the ‘66 GTO block I talk about. Larry had Mike Keown( another old friend and NHRA World Champion now deceased) ultrasonic inspection this block. That is when the .090 or thinner primary thrust cylinder walls were discovered. Imagine what Larry’s shock would have been if Mike had begun boring and honing this block only to have cylinder walls collapse! This is why I want a block to be ultrasonic tested as well as magnafluxed BEFORE machining begins.

Dan is the one who let me know about the 66 389s having thin cylinder walls and all the come backs to dealerships because of it. And that is the reason Pontiac made the 67 400 with extra meat around the bores. He was a dealership mechanic back then and had to do the work.
And it came true for my family. Growing up we had a 66 Catalina Station Wagon and it finally died from a cracked cylinder.
We junked it with nothing wrong with her but the engine. I just took the AFB carb and intake off it.
Took it for granted as it would be cool to have now.
Right now I am dealing with having to move one header tube, just kisses the kickout on the oil pan. I don't want to dent it and there is enough room to move it so I am sending back to the guy who made if for modification. I have too much time and money into them with the O2 bungs and merge collectors (expensive!) to have them look bad. Powder coating them inside and out.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Never say never ...

OK if someone made us a block something like a 70 RAV block but with a sbc style valley area, 1/8" more meat around the lifer bores, siamessed cylinders, extra rib on the pan rail like 59-60 blocks and ductile iron splayed main caps and thick main webs like a IA2.
That should do it, hey I can dream with the best of them.
Oh, about 2,500$ too.

All-Pontiac already did that. They had a batch of "soft" blocks (still harder than OEM) and offered them for considerably less than your suggested list price.... They had a hard time selling them.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Dan is the one who let me know about the 66 389s having thin cylinder walls and all the come backs to dealerships because of it. And that is the reason Pontiac made the 67 400 with extra meat around the bores. He was a dealership mechanic back then and had to do the work.
And it came true for my family. Growing up we had a 66 Catalina Station Wagon and it finally died from a cracked cylinder.
We junked it with nothing wrong with her but the engine. I just took the AFB carb and intake off it.
Took it for granted as it would be cool to have now.
Right now I am dealing with having to move one header tube, just kisses the kickout on the oil pan. I don't want to dent it and there is enough room to move it so I am sending back to the guy who made if for modification. I have too much time and money into them with the O2 bungs and merge collectors (expensive!) to have them look bad. Powder coating them inside and out.

Late in 1965, my Uncle Bud ordered a one off ‘66 Tempest with a 389 two barrel (250 hp if I remember correctly) TH400 for towing horse trailers. My Aunt Dolly was a tiny woman (5 feet tall, about 95 lbs) who couldn’t drive Bud’s ‘65 F-100. The dealer he ordered the Tempest from (Liddie Pontiac) were who did the installation of the engine and transmission. Six months after purchase Bud found an oil pan full of coolant. It was traced to a cracked cylinder wall in the ‘66 389 block. Liddie and PMD wanted to sleeve the block; Bud wanted a new engine. Bud won. An SR short block was shipped in and installed. He had no more problems with that engine. That is one of the two ‘66 389 blocks I have personally seen fail.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Never say never ...

OK if someone made us a block something like a 70 RAV block but with a sbc style valley area, 1/8" more meat around the lifer bores, siamessed cylinders, extra rib on the pan rail like 59-60 blocks and ductile iron splayed main caps and thick main webs like a IA2.
That should do it, hey I can dream with the best of them.
Oh, about 2,500$ too.

Possible. Foundries are like any other business; the more you order the less you pay. The initial cost would be in R&D and pattern making for the initial batch. Once you have a pattern for the mold it’s downhill. Waupaca has a foundry at Tell City, IN that specializes in ductile iron casting. To get a reasonable price per unit you are going to have to order a minimum of one thousand units.