[jeff chmura]

Hi All,
I'm wondering what type of cranking time is normal upon a cold start.
I have a 461/kre d ports/ crane ra4 copy,10.1 compression,Holley dual sync.
I'm experiencing a 12-15 sec crank at cold start,no matter what the outside temperature is. It could be 30 degrees or 80 degrees.
Once the car is warm or has been started,it will start on maybe one or two revolutions.
Just wondering if that's normal before get into troubleshooting.
Thanks, Jeff

[Tuske427]

not an expert, but it sounds a bit long, imo. I would ask if you have a one way check valve in your fuel line to maintain fuel pressure or if you turn the key to "on" and allow the fuel pump to pressurize the fuel line before attempting to start. with my aftermarket FI systems it'll take a lot longer to start if I don't ensure the fuel lines are pressurized before starting.

[jeff chmura]

I have a gauge inline and as soon as you turn the key,I have 58psi at the inlet.
Thanks, Jeff

[Mr Twister]

My sniper barely runs on a test stand engine i built. So i would say a professional tune is needed , like mine.

[krisr]

Best to use a laptop to tune any of the Holley stuff after you use the 3.5" touch screen to get it going with an initial tune file.

In the laptop software goto Fuel / Startup Enrichment / Cranking Fuel, increase the cranking fuel relevant to your temperature until it fires quickly. You'd be surprised at how much fuel is needed. Also set the Fuel Prime Percent to about 150% (default setting on the Sniper 2).

Also goto Ignition / Cranking Parameters, set your cranking spark if you're using spark control to 8*.

Again, the 3.5" LCD screen is a waste of time but from memory you can modify cranking fuel through it too, I just don't have my car handy to find the exact place to change it because I pretty much only use the laptop.

Make sure your injector settings are setup properly too. If you used the handheld to configure it, you should be OK here but if you use the laptop

[El Chivo Blanco]

Why not just put a carb on it and be done with it.

[jeff chmura]

I'm going to have to dig into it a bit....
Thanks for all that replied. You confirmed it's not normal.
FYI... I have 58psi as soon as I turn the key.
I have tried anywhere from 6-12 degrees while cranking and no change.
I'm probably better off having it setup professionally.
Any good tuner recommendations close to central NJ?
El Chivo... Went fuel injection instead of carb for better starting and better fueling.... Guess that wasn't smart.... Lol
I'm in it now, so no going back....I'm not a quitter

[w72]

I have a very similar combo with the same camshaft, it barked to life within a couple seconds on the first try. I would verify that your distributor is set up per Holley's instructions, both physically, and in the startup wizard software. I would also take a datalog on your next cold start to ensure that everything looks good and that there are no signs of RFI/EMI problems.

Are your power and ground leads for the Sniper and ignition amp wired directly to the battery as per instructions?

[jeff chmura]

Ok...I compared my settings to the ones krisr posted
My crank timing was set to 8 degrees
My fuel prime was 110% so I raised it to 150%
My multiplier was set at 2 so I raised it to 5,figures worst case it would flood.
Cranked the engine for about 10secs now as soon as I let go of the the,it started..... So I'm thinking o have low voltage or voltage drop through the key switch.
To answer w72 question.... The system is wired as per the instructions, but in the instructions it tells you to wire directly from the key switch to the "switched 12volt from key switch" pink wire.
I think what I'm going to do is wire a relay on that circuit and see if it changes
W72, what are your cold start settings? I'd like to use that as a baseline... AFR,fuel prime, multiplier.
I'll let you know how I make out...
Thanks guys, Jeff

[jeff chmura]

Ok...I compared my settings to the ones krisr posted
My crank timing was set to 8 degrees
My fuel prime was 110% so I raised it to 150%
My multiplier was set at 2 so I raised it to 5, figured worst case it would flood.
Cranked the engine for about 10secs now as soon as I let go of the key,it started..... So I'm thinking I have low voltage or voltage drop through the key switch.
To answer w72 question.... The system is wired as per the instructions, but in the instructions it tells you to wire directly from the key switch to the "switched 12volt from key switch" pink wire.
I think what I'm going to do is wire a relay on that circuit and see if it changes

W72, what are your cold start settings? I'd like to use that as a baseline... AFR,fuel prime, multiplier.
I'll let you know how I make out...
Thanks guys, Jeff

[w72]

I have not made any changes to the cold start settings. No street miles yet as we're still finishing up the braking system.

[krisr]

Originally Posted by jeff chmura

Ok...I compared my settings to the ones krisr posted
My crank timing was set to 8 degrees
My fuel prime was 110% so I raised it to 150%
My multiplier was set at 2 so I raised it to 5, figured worst case it would flood.
Cranked the engine for about 10secs now as soon as I let go of the key,it started..... So I'm thinking I have low voltage or voltage drop through the key switch.
To answer w72 question.... The system is wired as per the instructions, but in the instructions it tells you to wire directly from the key switch to the "switched 12volt from key switch" pink wire.
I think what I'm going to do is wire a relay on that circuit and see if it changes

W72, what are your cold start settings? I'd like to use that as a baseline... AFR,fuel prime, multiplier.
I'll let you know how I make out...
Thanks guys, Jeff

That pink wire is a "trigger" wire to turn the ECU on (typically the factory coil positive wire), but if you've left the resistance wire in there it'll only see about 8V when the key is in the run position and not the crank position. Having it trigger a relay can't hurt but check it's got voltage in both crank and run.

I was tuning an engine last night with a 2x4 super sniper setup on top of a 6/71 supercharger. Cranking cold it took about 5-6 seconds to fire, but when hot it fired instantly. From experience it can take about 1-2 weeks to tune cold starts because you only get 1 go at it.

Holleys are usually pretty good at mapping themself in with the learn table. Just remember to transfer the learn to base & smooth a few times in the beginning, then start to lower the "authority" the learn and closed loop has as the tune gets better because if the wideband sensor craps the bed, you don't want it screwing everything up.

[Formulajones]

Just a couple things.

Before worrying about starting parameters, the base fuel table has to be dialed in close to perfect. The start tables are just a multiplier of the base fuel table, so if the base fuel table isn't tuned properly, messing with the start tables is just going to throw things further out of whack. You'll need a laptop and lots of driving to get that base table dialed in first.

On the Pink wire, it needs cranking voltage as well as key on voltage. Holley says they don't like to see less than 10 volts while cranking for that pink wire, so you'll need a meter on it to test while cranking to see where you're at. I've seen them drop to 7-8 volts and not start, causing extended crank and hard start scenarios where they would sometimes catch and start just as you let off the key. But most of the time they would just crank for long periods and not start. You may find you'll have to move that wire around to a good spot that has strong voltage at crank, or run it through a relay.

Both of these things have to be checked and fixed before I'd worry about the startup tables.

Also the base fuel prime setting (key on) is 150% so it sounds like someone already turned that down for some reason (you found 110%)

[TheSilverBuick]

I crank my cars at 5º and immediately goes to ~15º when it catches. Its easy on the starter and cranks fast for oil pressure, etc. Then the ECU controls the idle rpm with timing so the timing wanders a bit from there to hold a steady rpm. 1,100 rpm when extra cold (more timing), down to 800 rpm when warm (less timing).

[jeff chmura]

Formula,
Agreed,but I've always had a long crank since initial setup.
I've been playing with the laptop settings trying to correct with no avail,hence why I asked about the long crank. Now, I don't have a baseline to refer to. The system doesn't allow you to " start over" so I'm at the trial and error stage now....

[HWYSTR455]

The ECU needs to establish a reference, and that can take 2 to 5 rotations. Longer if you have low cranking voltage.

Agree you should review the cranking voltage and the distributor setup.

While key is on and before you start cranking, crack the throttle a little and see if it starts faster. That would tell you it's too rich, then just remove some cranking fuel.

If that doesn't make a difference, lean it out slowly. You have to cycle the key after those types of changes, and don't crack the throttle before you turn the key on. It does a TPS autoset within the first 2 sec or so, and it can get a bad TPS sync.

You can reset to factory if you reload the SIM card with original files, removing or overwriting the existing files. Always save any changes to a new file so you don't have to start over. The files are available for download from Holley. There are instructions included I believe in the ReadMe.txt . You can also look for the vid on youtube, Holley has a channel.

It's suggested that you disconnect the battery for 15 min when doing a 'factory reset'.


.

.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by jeff chmura

Formula,
Agreed,but I've always had a long crank since initial setup.
I've been playing with the laptop settings trying to correct with no avail,hence why I asked about the long crank. Now, I don't have a baseline to refer to. The system doesn't allow you to " start over" so I'm at the trial and error stage now....

I would check the voltage while cranking at the pink wire. If it's low it causes extended start time. Difficult to do by yourself sometimes and may require some extra hands.

This is going to be process of elimination but I'd start there at the obvious things first. Then I would move on to things that Highway mentioned like.......Does cracking the throttle open help it start? That would indicate you need more idle air or less fuel.

However I can't state enough, these start tables are just simple multipliers of the base fuel table. So if the base fuel table isn't dialed in yet, you'll throw all your cold and hot start tables out of whack if you're adjusting those already. You end up so far out in left field that way that it's extremely difficult to tune around. In those cases I'd suggest reloading a base tune to start over with so you don't chase your tail.

One other thing that causes cold and hot start issues is the holley temp sender. They are notorious for being inaccurate. Holley is aware but hasn't done anything about it. They just keep sending the same sending unit out with the kits. They typically read 20 degrees off, which throws the cold and hot start tables out in a different area of fuel multipliers and causes start issues. The fix is to run to your local Oreillys or Napa and grab a replacement for $20. The part numbers that are compatible are listed on the Holley forum. I don't have them handy at the moment.

[jeff chmura]

All good points ...I have been making changes to
My base table values, without any change to the cold start. Coolant sensor is good.... Verifies with temp gun....
Always had this since initial set up.... I have changed many settings via laptop without changes to cold start.
Hot start, is a 2-3 sec crank and starts/idles fine..
IIRC, no change with opening throttle blades. I will verify tonight.
I will also verify crank voltage at the "pink" wire
It would be nice if Holley had a "basic setting" table to compare on there blog.only Ford,Chevy stuff..
If someone can walk me through how to save and post a datalog, I will post it. Maybe someone can see what I don't???

Thanks, Jeff

[jeff chmura]

Did some checks....
12.27v at battery key off engine off
11.80v At battery key on engine off
9.6 v at "pink" wire for ECU whole cranking.
So low voltage. I will add a relay to the pink and retest
I took a video of the fuel pressure just to check while cranking.pressure stayed 58-62psi
It took about 7 seconds to fire .
Also, I'll try to do a datalog tomorrow and post
Thanks, jeff

[Formulajones]

On a cold start, easy way to verify temp sensor is make sure it matches the IAT temp sensor. They should be within a couple degrees. Shown in the main screen together. If they are spread more than that after sitting over night then change the coolant temp sensor.

Also another tip, to keep from rerunning the wizard when your tune gets too far out of whack, rename the wizard stock tune and save it. Then when you make changes save that under a different name. That way if you feel something is to far out of tune, you can always revert back to the stock tune without rerunning the wizard.