[Steve C.]

"If you plan to build an engine using the same bearing clearances as the factory, then a stock volume oil pump should be selected. However, if you plan to use larger bearing clearances, then, typically, a high volume oil pump should be chosen."

From the article I linked in post #47


.

[Tom Vaught]

Absolutely Stan, so posting about one application does not set the standard for all.

4.6L 4 valve Mustang engine normally will allow 8000+ rpm events daily for over the 150,000 durability cycle of the engine. You need to look at the whole engine and its oiling requirements, not RACE an engine rpm. The idea is to have a solid oil system design that can live for many years without cavitation issues.

As I have posted before the durability most brag about is a very small number vs normal engineering testing.

Say the Slowbird Dad's engine runs in the 9 second range.

9 seconds times 1000 passes = 9000 seconds. 9000 seconds is 150 MINUTES

Basically 2.5 hours at max rpm.

We ran for 8 hours straight at max rpm plus 10% in ONE durability cycle.
One out of the 4 durability cycles was the max rpm plus 10% cycle.

We would run engines for 2000 plus hours on our dynos without a failure.
So that means we would run 500 of those max rpm plus 10% durability cycles
without a failure. So your dad's thousand passes of 9 seconds does not speak to any real durability testing I am impressed with, slowbird..............................

In all of those years of testing I cannot ever remember a oil pump failure with the 4.6L 4 Valve oil pump or its related parts.

Sorry bud, your dad's durability cycle is small potatoes in my book.

Back on the Luhn Oil Pump. Mark is fixing a issue with the street pontiac oil pumps and making them more durable for high performance applications. That is all that needs to be said.

Tom V.

[Stan Weiss]

Tom,
If we look at pump free flow (do not want bypass to open) isn't volume increase about linear with RPM increase?

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Tom,
If we look at pump free flow (do not want bypass to open) isn't volume increase about linear with RPM increase?

Stan

Could be Stan but even with the bypass closed and no restrictions in the system, unless you test is putting a oil pump on the ground and hooking a drill to it at some drill rpm. Then the pump is truly not a free flow device.

If you added any restriction to the outlet side of the pump, it is not free flow any longer. Now you have the pump working against some "Head", be it a restriction in a hose or pipe in a boat bilge pump dumping over the side of a boat with the sides of the boat two feet above the bottom of the boat or a 20 foot length of hose laying on the ground with internal hose surface friction.

The broken stem on the Keen oil pump still had some restriction in that short distance between the two parts. Even though it was a very small open circuit.

Not sure where you are heading with your question.

Flow benches like the holley Flow Benches always had some flow restriction standard in the system,
be it the piping, whether a carb was installed, whether the carb blades were open, etc.

The Melling people among other manufacturers have a "standard" that they use to standardize the testing between the different pumps. Without knowing that "standard" and its restriction you are basically assuming.

I am sure that Mark at Luhn Performance got the flow standard dimension from Melling when he built his oil pump flow stand.

Tom V.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Absolutely Stan, so posting about one application does not set the standard for all.

4.6L 4 valve Mustang engine normally will allow 8000+ rpm events daily for over the 150,000 durability cycle of the engine. You need to look at the whole engine and its oiling requirements, not RACE an engine rpm. The idea is to have a solid oil system design that can live for many years without cavitation issues.

As I have posted before the durability most brag about is a very small number vs normal engineering testing.

Say the Slowbird Dad's engine runs in the 9 second range.

9 seconds times 1000 passes = 9000 seconds. 9000 seconds is 150 MINUTES

Basically 2.5 hours at max rpm.

We ran for 8 hours straight at max rpm plus 10% in ONE durability cycle.
One out of the 4 durability cycles was the max rpm plus 10% cycle.

We would run engines for 2000 plus hours on our dynos without a failure.
So that means we would run 500 of those max rpm plus 10% durability cycles
without a failure. So your dad's thousand passes of 9 seconds does not speak to any real durability testing I am impressed with, slowbird..............................

In all of those years of testing I cannot ever remember a oil pump failure with the 4.6L 4 Valve oil pump or its related parts.

Sorry bud, your dad's durability cycle is small potatoes in my book.

Back on the Luhn Oil Pump. Mark is fixing a issue with the street pontiac oil pumps and making them more durable for high performance applications. That is all that needs to be said.

Tom V.

We are talking Pontiac street/strip engines Tom. Please tell me how many pontiacs out there will meet your durability standards? Please post Luhn durability test that meets those standards.
Im not trying to impress you, just speaking from my personal experience.

[Tom Vaught]

I would say that the Pontiacs with Luhn Performance parts would have a better chance of going more hours on a dyno durability stand than without his parts simply because he has a well thought out oil pump design that, in reality, is affordable for most people. Still many dollars less than any dry sump system.

We are talking a well designed street pump that can be used for some level of drag racing use. Obviously the one off Dry Sump system that Bob and Frank had designed and later sold to the road racing guy in Europe is a better system.

Its about Smoke and Mirrors or the absence of Smoke and Mirrors.

He has a good design that works. An improvement over the 50+ year old Traditional Pontiac Pumps designed for getting grandma to the grocery store.

But don't try to impress me with Engine Durability comments when you Slowbird obviously do not have any knowledge in that area of the game.

The bottom line is Mark's stuff works. He has upgraded the capability of the basic Melling oil pumps to a higher level of performance and efficiency. Be happy as a Pontiac guy that he has something a grade above the rest at a inexpensive cost vs a Dry Sump System. The larger inlet on the pump was put there for a reason.

Tom V.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I would say that the Pontiacs with Luhn Performance parts would have a better chance of going more hours on a dyno durability stand than without his parts simply because he has a well thought out oil pump design that, in reality, is affordable for most people. Still many dollars less than any dry sump system.

We are talking a well designed street pump that can be used for some level of drag racing use. Obviously the one off Dry Sump system that Bob and Frank had designed and later sold to the road racing guy in Europe is a better system.

Its about Smoke and Mirrors or the absence of Smoke and Mirrors.

He has a good design that works. An improvement over the 50+ year old Traditional Pontiac Pumps designed for getting grandma to the grocery store.

But don't try to impress me with Engine Durability comments when you Slowbird obviously do not have any knowledge in that area of the game.

The bottom line is Mark's stuff works. He has upgraded the capability of the basic Melling oil pumps to a higher level of performance and efficiency. Be happy as a Pontiac guy that he has something a grade above the rest at a inexpensive cost vs a Dry Sump System. The larger inlet on the pump was put there for a reason.

Tom V.

Last I'll post, i agree his pump works, i never said otherwise, what i was asking or trying to figure is when is it needed?? Or should everyone go get one for their build because Luhn is your friend and he needs/wants money?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Could be Stan but even with the bypass closed and no restrictions in the system, unless you test is putting a oil pump on the ground and hooking a drill to it at some drill rpm. Then the pump is truly not a free flow device.

If you added any restriction to the outlet side of the pump, it is not free flow any longer. Now you have the pump working against some "Head", be it a restriction in a hose or pipe in a boat bilge pump dumping over the side of a boat with the sides of the boat two feet above the bottom of the boat or a 20 foot length of hose laying on the ground with internal hose surface friction.

The broken stem on the Keen oil pump still had some restriction in that short distance between the two parts. Even though it was a very small open circuit.

Not sure where you are heading with your question.

Flow benches like the holley Flow Benches always had some flow restriction standard in the system,
be it the piping, whether a carb was installed, whether the carb blades were open, etc.

The Melling people among other manufacturers have a "standard" that they use to standardize the testing between the different pumps. Without knowing that "standard" and its restriction you are basically assuming.

I am sure that Mark at Luhn Performance got the flow standard dimension from Melling when he built his oil pump flow stand.

Tom V.

Tom,
I seem to remember many years ago watching a flow test of a mechanical fuel injection pump at different RPM's and them measuring the flow rate at each RPM. And that is what I was talking about doing with the oil pump.

Stan

[BGus16]

Stan, i have done fuel pump mapping years ago. Manually entering data into excel. RPM, torque, flow in GPM's, temp rise, and delta pressures. Now we just hit a button and the data acquisition captures it at 1000 hz.
Flow will rise in a linear fashion almost until you hit the relief valve. All pumps have some leakage so its not 100% effecient. If the relief valve is blocked pressure will continue to rise until something gives. Usually a cracked gear or many times the pressure (discharge) will move the gears over to the inlet side until the gear journal or shaft touches the bore. IF you lose the film thickness then it will heat up and seize pretty quick. I would guess on a pontiac oil pump you may bend the cover until it relieves pressure. Gear pumps are pretty tough and we are only talking about 60-80 psi here. I am used to dealing in 1000-2000 psid pump testing.
All of my experience is with Jet A fuel so i dont have any knowlege testing in oil though.
I would like to see someone post a picture of any cavitation the have found in their oil pump. Mostly i have see it on the gear teeth.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Last I'll post, i agree his pump works, i never said otherwise, what i was asking or trying to figure is when is it needed?? Or should everyone go get one for their build because Luhn is your friend and he needs/wants money?

I have to smile at this post.
You probably have no idea what a 5 axis CNC machine costs, slowbird.
Luhn had a 3 axis machine years ago and recently he purchased another CNC machine. Now he has two.
He needs the money. Ha ha ha.

His wife is the owner of Luhn Performance and she is knocking down a very nice paycheck at her real job as a high level administrator for a very large company (works for the big boss). Mark does this stuff for FUN.

Again you have no knowledge on any subject it appears and post up lies about people who are actually doing
good things for Pontiac people.

Hopefully you will not change you mind AGAIN and post some other misinformation. Yes, Mark and his wife are my friends, but I have nothing to do with their company except for occasionally providing knowledge of what actually works on a engine system or component.

Tom V.

BGus16, Thanks for the informative post. The physics does not change.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I have to smile at this post.
You probably have no idea what a 5 axis CNC machine costs, slowbird.
Luhn had a 3 axis machine years ago and recently he purchased another CNC machine. Now he has two.
He needs the money. Ha ha ha.

His wife is the owner of Luhn Performance and she is knocking down a very nice paycheck at her real job as a high level administrator for a very large company (works for the big boss). Mark does this stuff for FUN.

Again you have no knowledge on any subject it appears and post up lies about people who are actually doing
good things for Pontiac people.

Hopefully you will not change you mind AGAIN and post some other misinformation. Yes, Mark and his wife are my friends, but I have nothing to do with their company except for occasionally providing knowledge of what actually works on a engine system or component.

Tom V.

BGus16, Thanks for the informative post. The physics does not change.

What lies and miss info have i posted?????
The plate i post was from luhn, his current plate is slight different. I can post that pic if you want but decided not to since it seems luhn doesn't want it know.
All i have said from the beginning is at what point is it needed?? No one has remotely answered that. I talked about MY personal experience with a mellings pump. Guess we can't discuss personal experiences now?
Never have i questioned the function of the pump or the quality of them. Again just WHEN is it NEEDED? Guess that makes me a liar?? Ok?
You were the one saying the Nitemare plate was wrong, i just posted a plate that Luhn had sold that was exactly the same. You didn't seem to like that i guess.
Also i spent all day yesterday on the dyno making big power from a stock block engine. Getting more real world experience. You gotten any lately?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Last I'll post, Or should everyone go get one for their build because Luhn is your friend and he needs/wants money?

So far you have lied 3 times about it being your last post.

Second, as I posted, he does not "needs/wants money."
Another Lie.

Brian, you just can't help yourself when it comes to lies.
Luhn's prices, for the machining he does are very low compared to the CNC machining companies I have dealt
with in the past in my job: Watson Engineering, Technosports, McLaren, and Roush all would be asking a lot
more money for the mods he does to our oil pumps.

Friend, Yes. I have lots of friends in the CNC machining in the Corporate World, Engineering & Machining/Fabrication type work.

Again you do not have a clue. You acknowledge that the Luhn pump mods work but you always add a little snide comment in the same post.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

I still see others emulating the mods Luhn makes. Not a thing wrong with that,
That is why I vote not to close this thread because of one individual and his lies.

Tom V.

[slowbird]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

So far you have lied 3 times about it being your last post.

Second, as I posted, he does not "needs/wants money."
Another Lie.

Brian, you just can't help yourself when it comes to lies.
Luhn's prices, for the machining he does are very low compared to the CNC machining companies I have dealt
with in the past in my job: Watson Engineering, Technosports, McLaren, and Roush all would be asking a lot
more money for the mods he does to our oil pumps.

Friend, Yes. I have lots of friends in the CNC machining in the Corporate World, Engineering & Machining/Fabrication type work.

Again you do not have a clue. You acknowledge that the Luhn pump mods work but you always add a little snide comment in the same post.

Tom V.

Lol ok Tom. Thanks for answering when the pump is needed vs the Mellings pump. Very helpful

[242177P]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

That is why I vote not to close this thread because of one individual and his lies.

Two individuals Tom. And one of them continues to fling poop while asking mods not to shut it down??

[Tom Vaught]

Dragncar started this thread on mods he was making to his oil pump based on info supplied by Luhn Performance, specifically the enlargement of the inlet tube on the oil pump. That is a fact, not a lie.

I have made several posts supplying info about the benefits of the mods including the enlarged inlet tube. That is a fact, not a lie.

Where the difference of opinion comes in is that the other individual thinks that 1000 1/4th mile passes
over the years constitutes a durability test. Maybe in his mind.
I posted what a real durability test entails. Before the 1966 Le Mans race, George Wilson, RIP, run the 427 engine on the dyno for 48 hours straight prior to the 1966 Le Mans (with the only stops being checking fluids and a visual inspection). That is a fact.

So everyone has an opinion.

The other guy has his opinion of "Luhn Performance and his need for money" apparently.
Enough to post a comment about that subject.

So 242177P why are you sticking your nose in this thread? I have never seen you post any information in the normal sections, only in the Clubhouse. But I will make you happy.
Stuart or Bart, if it is ok with Dragncar, lock this thread. All info that needs to be posted has been posted.

Tom V.

[Dragncar]

Hey. I have a new pickup being redone based on this thread. If it gets locked I will have to start another one to show how it turned out.
I think its a important topic so we all can learn something. Lets just not take things personal. Because if that were the case I would never post based on some of the garbage I have had to put up with here at times.
Agreeing to disagree is not the worst thing in the world.

[Tom Vaught]

You started the thread, I have no issues with that deal.
You obviously are doing the mod because you feel there is some benefit to the modification. Carry on.

Tom V.

[Stan Weiss]

Dragncar,
Serious question. What makes you think you need new oil system modes? Didn't you run your present engine for a good number of years and have no oil system related problems? Is this new engine going to turn a much higher RPM?

Stan

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

You started the thread, I have no issues with that deal.
You obviously are doing the mod because you feel there is some benefit to the modification. Carry on.

Tom V.

Sure, I want to hear your opinion of the changes I made based on your input. If I do not like what I hear I might just call Luhn and have him make me up a pump.
Other things on the build need attention and time.
I am doing this because Luhn told me many of the things he told you about the problem. Bet he told you a lot more.
Yes I feel there is a benefit to this modification. Just like the modifications Dan told me to do with other aspects of the oiling system.
I pulled the Canton pan and pickup off the engine about 5-6 years into the build. The bearings did not look perfect by any means. Needs to be better.
I believe pulling the Canton pickup and going to a stock one has helped the engine last so long.