[JLMounce]

As you may have previously read, an exhaust shop broke off my dipstick tube during a header install recently. They attempted to plug the tube so that I could enjoy the car for the summer, but that plug failed within a couple days.

That means if I want to have any fun with the car this year, the engine has to come out. I'm going to get started on that this week.

I have a hoist at my disposal, but this is the first time I'll be taking an engine out of a car. I want to make sure I'm not overlooking anything.

My plan is to remove the headers from the heads prior to removal and I'll be taking the engine out without the transmission. The car will be on a lift, with a jacking tray, so I can keep the transmission in it's current position.

I'd like to keep the radiator in place, but if it's looking too tight, I'll remove that.

Once I get the engine out, the plan is to remove the pan, press in a new tube, replace the my 8 year old Lunati lifters and seal it back up. I haven't decided if I'm going to purchase and install a new pan. I've had my eye on the nightmare performance pan.

While I'm sure cracking a main cap and a rod cap to check on bearing health is a good idea, I'm positive that factory hardware is in the bottom end. I'm worried about reinstalling hardware, only to have a failure related to that. I may decide not to touch it unless I visually see something off. The engine has good and steady oil pressure and there's no material on the magnetic drain plug, or in the oil filter as of the last oil change a couple weeks ago.

As far as sealing the engine back up, what is the current best recommendation for the oil pan gasket? It currently leaks at the U. Cork with some sealer like Aviation? One Piece rubber?

Is there anything on my list here that I'm missing that I absolutely should do while they engine is out? I'm trying to keep the cost down and have a quick turnaround.

Thanks!

[Singleton]

#3 Main cap will most likely need to come off anyway to install the new dipstick tube

[steve25]

Like post 2 states that main cap will need to come off to atleast drive the new tube in so you can then check out how that lower main bearing looks.

You will need a pine ferring strip of wood or something like a old floor broom handle to drive the new tube in.

[tom s]

Is there a real reason to change lifters?If not broke dont fix it.tom

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by steve25

Like post 2 states that main cap will need to come off to atleast drive the new tube in so you can then check out how that lower main bearing looks.

You will need a pine ferring strip of wood or something like a old floor broom handle to drive the new tube in.

Okay that's good to know. It's probably a bit overkill, but for 12 bucks I was going to purchase butler's tool to drive in the dipstick tube.

If I remove the #3 cap, can I replace that cap and retorque alone, or do I need to loosen all of the caps and retorque in sequence?

[ZeGermanHam]

Regarding bottom end engine health, of you don't want to take caps off, etc., you could instead send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis to check the levels of bearing wear metals. Would be easy to send a sample out while you're working on everything else in the meantime.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by tom s

Is there a real reason to change lifters?If not broke dont fix it.tom

I have one known lifter in the engine with a soft plunger. The lifters have clattered quite a bit since they were installed.

I know the Morels have been updated to relocate the oil band which may help that. You're correct though, I haven't really had any issues with them other than the noise. I could theoretically just replace the one lifter set that I know has an issue.

But as long as the cover is coming off, changing all of them is easy. I'm still thinking about that.

[tom s]

You never know,you might have 3 bad ones in the next batch!Seems like Johnsons are the best go to without issues.Tom

[Sirrotica]

Just remove it and re-install it, then hit it with a torque wrench. The factory used calibrated impact wrenches when they were originally assembled. Your doing a better job than they did just by using a manual torque wrench. Same goes for rod bearings if you decide to inspect those. With shortages of Pontiac bearings currently, you should probably consider re-using your bearings if they and the crank are okay upon inspection.

I've always used Felpro oil pan gaskets glued down with super weatherstrip adhesive (gorilla snot), and used RTV in all the corner areas where the gaskets meet. I've never seen, or used the BOP one piece gasket, some like it well, some have problems with it.

I've seen people say that the replacement stock style oil pans aren't made as well as the OEM GM pans. They are closer to the crossmember, and steering linkage. I might be inclined to re-use a GM pan, if there is no problems with it.

If you have no knowledge of the current oil pump driveshaft history, you could opt for one of the aftermarket ones while you're already there. I would also remove the bottom plate of the oil pump, and take a look at it, and the gears while it's apart. Replace, or reuse depending upon what it looks like. If the front timing cover seal is old and tired looking, might also be a good time to change that too. If the torque convertor seal is old, also a good time to take a look at it with the engine removed. Seems to me though you just put a 4L80E in? Memory at 70 sometimes can't be trusted...LOL

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

Just remove it and re-install it, then hit it with a torque wrench. The factory used calibrated impact wrenches when they were originally assembled. Your doing a better job than they did just by using a manual torque wrench. Same goes for rod bearings if you decide to inspect those. With shortages of Pontiac bearings currently, you should probably consider re-using your bearings if they and the crank are okay upon inspection.

I've always used Felpro oil pan gaskets glued down with super weatherstrip adhesive (gorilla snot), and used RTV in all the corner areas where the gaskets meet. I've never seen, or used the BOP one piece gasket, some like it well, some have problems with it.

I've seen people say that the replacement stock style oil pans aren't made as well as the OEM GM pans. They are closer to the crossmember, and steering linkage. I might be inclined to re-use a GM pan, if there is no problems with it.

If you have no knowledge of the current oil pump driveshaft history, you could opt for one of the aftermarket ones while you're already there. I would also remove the bottom plate of the oil pump, and take a look at it, and the gears while it's apart. Replace, or reuse depending upon what it looks like. If the front timing cover seal is old and tired looking, might also be a good time to change that too. If the torque convertor seal is old, also a good time to take a look at it with the engine removed. Seems to me though you just put a 4L80E in? Memory at 70 sometimes can't be trusted...LOL

Yes, you're correct, I just installed a 4l80 with a new torque converter. Everything there is kosher.

I'm fairly certain the pan that is on this car is a factory pan. As the engine currently sits, I have about a 1/4" clearance from the pan to the cross-member and there's a good 2 inches between the drag link and the pan.

Only reason for considering a change is oil control. The car is setup to turn and is on Falken Azenis tires. Hard right hand corners produce a noticeable decline in oil pressure.

I've considered the Nightmare Performance pan, specifically because it also includes a new pump with machined bottom plate etc. All that said though, it would be very easy to let project creep happen here when all that should be needed is the dipstick tube.

Considering the engine is known .030 over, I would assume the crank is ground at least 10/10. Not sure on availability of those bearings.

[Sirrotica]

Better oil control, is a good thing if your auto crossing, or road racing. Pontiac has always had trouble with oil pressure on hard right handers, so it surely wouldn't hurt to replace with a better pan. Oil is a much better lubrication fluid than air is. An Accusump type accumulator might also be a good addition to avoid oil starvation, and help with dry starts on extended storage periods.

Nightmare makes some good products, and I have met the owner years ago at a Schenectady GTO show, Darrin I believe, quite knowledgeable about Pontiacs.

[JLMounce]

Mixed bag on news right now. The engine is out and as it always does, it looks clean and tidy. There were three small bits of silicone in the oil pump screen. The oil pan is very clean.

The reason the cap that the exhaust shop fashioned failed was because the lower dipstick was just laying in the block passage, not sealing anything.

The engine does have a windage gray and as you can see in the pictures, is cracked in several places.

While trying to undue the block screws to drain the water, I snapped one bolt in the block. Most of the bolt is in the block so I don’t think that’s going to be an issue I deal with right now.

I’m not sure what rod bolt hardware is present here. I’m thinking this is the factory stuff. There is an “N” stamped on the bolt head of each rod bolt. Is that a factory stamping?

I’ll remove the oil pump and windage tray tomorrow to pull a couple caps and check bearing wear. Right now I’m thinking this is going to be a pan replacement, new dipstick tube and reinstall.

I’ll take the time to degrease the engine and give it a nice coat of Pontiac blue before it goes back in.

[TedRamAirII]

Did that engine plate and tilter work out good? Did you take the trans out along with the engine?

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Did that engine plate and tilter work out good? Did you take the trans out along with the engine?

Yeah the filter itself was well worth the purchase. Was able to get the engine out without removing the radiator because I had the filter.

I did not remove the trans with the engine. Since I have a lift it was easy to use the jacking tray as a transmission support.

I did have to remove the headers, starter and oil filter adapter.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

While trying to undue the block screws to drain the water, I snapped one bolt in the block.

"Block screws"? Do you mean the block drain plugs?

There's no better time to deal with that than when the engine is out.

When it's me, I replace iron/steel drain plugs with brass plugs, or brass drain-cocks.

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Yeah the filter itself was well worth the purchase. Was able to get the engine out without removing the radiator because I had the filter.

Filter???

[b-man]

Tilter.

Not filter.

Autocorrect strikes again.

[steve25]

Those are factory rods that show signs of a balancing job.

The way that windage tray has cracked is very suspicious!

I bet you the oil pan shows signs of whiteness marks where it was rubbing.
If so it’s time to run stacked up pan gaskets.

I have seen cracked trays after a rebuild was done where it was obvious that the lower dip stick tube that gets captured by the tray was not floating as it should.

It was loading the tray sideways once the tray was bolted down which applied the force needed to crack it in a short time .

[mgarblik]

I have been following this since the tube was originally snapped off. Reading your #1 post and your plans, this is how I would approach. You stated that the engine was fine, but had 8 year old lifters? IMO, changing the lifters opens up a much more major repair and expense than fixing the dipstick tube. So your at a crossroad. You stated you wanted to keep the costs under control and have a quick turnaround. One thing you did not talk about is the rear main seal. Is there any leak there? And if there is, is it just a few drips you can live with? If the engine runs OK, and no rear main seal to deal with, and the lifters are basically OK, you can fix what's broken in a couple hours and put the engine back in. That would be, installing a new or used unbroken windage tray, the 2 pieces of the dipstick tube, a new oil pan gasket, and your done. I would use a Felpro 4 piece oil pan gasket or a MR. Gasket UltraSeal set which is pressed cardboard if you prefer. I would remove only the #3 main cap if necessary and reinstall at 95 ft. lbs. Make sure the 2 bolt holes are not full of oil when you put the bolts back in.

Now on the flip side, if you want to spend time and money, you can open up the engine and do a complete inspection. I do not recommend this unless your willing to have the engine down for most of the summer. Your going to certainly find things that look a little sketchy, your going to begin second guessing everything, like the camshaft the lifters were riding on, the little slop in the timing chain, the scratches in the cylinder walls, the white deposits on the exhaust valve heads, the 8 year old valve springs and seals, the little valley pan oil leak, the tiny water leak between the timing cover and the intake, the connecting rod bolts, the list is just endless. Before you know it, your thousands of dollars into a freshen up and year is gone.

I just went through this exact scenario with a customer 66 tri-power GTO. Another shop pulled engine to install a rear main seal. It sat unfinished for 9 months. Was towed to me in pieces. I found 50+ things wrong in the engine, none serious. He said it ran fine before they screwed up the seal. I put a new BOP seal in it, new pan gasket and put the engine back in. 2 days later, he was out enjoying the car. It's all about what YOU want when it's done. Good luck with getting it on the road ASAP.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by steve25

Those are factory rods that show signs of a balancing job.

The way that windage tray has cracked is very suspicious!

I bet you the oil pan shows signs of whiteness marks where it was rubbing.
If so it’s time to run stacked up pan gaskets.

I have seen cracked trays after a rebuild was done where it was obvious that the lower dip stick tube that gets captured by the tray was not floating as it should.

It was loading the tray sideways once the tray was bolted down which applied the force needed to crack it in a short time .

On initial inspection, I did not see any witness marks in the oil pan. I wasn't specifically looking for them however. I will check today, thanks.

Originally Posted by mgarblik

I have been following this since the tube was originally snapped off. Reading your #1 post and your plans, this is how I would approach. You stated that the engine was fine, but had 8 year old lifters? IMO, changing the lifters opens up a much more major repair and expense than fixing the dipstick tube. So your at a crossroad. You stated you wanted to keep the costs under control and have a quick turnaround. One thing you did not talk about is the rear main seal. Is there any leak there? And if there is, is it just a few drips you can live with? If the engine runs OK, and no rear main seal to deal with, and the lifters are basically OK, you can fix what's broken in a couple hours and put the engine back in. That would be, installing a new or used unbroken windage tray, the 2 pieces of the dipstick tube, a new oil pan gasket, and your done. I would use a Felpro 4 piece oil pan gasket or a MR. Gasket UltraSeal set which is pressed cardboard if you prefer. I would remove only the #3 main cap if necessary and reinstall at 95 ft. lbs. Make sure the 2 bolt holes are not full of oil when you put the bolts back in.

Now on the flip side, if you want to spend time and money, you can open up the engine and do a complete inspection. I do not recommend this unless your willing to have the engine down for most of the summer. Your going to certainly find things that look a little sketchy, your going to begin second guessing everything, like the camshaft the lifters were riding on, the little slop in the timing chain, the scratches in the cylinder walls, the white deposits on the exhaust valve heads, the 8 year old valve springs and seals, the little valley pan oil leak, the tiny water leak between the timing cover and the intake, the connecting rod bolts, the list is just endless. Before you know it, your thousands of dollars into a freshen up and year is gone.

I just went through this exact scenario with a customer 66 tri-power GTO. Another shop pulled engine to install a rear main seal. It sat unfinished for 9 months. Was towed to me in pieces. I found 50+ things wrong in the engine, none serious. He said it ran fine before they screwed up the seal. I put a new BOP seal in it, new pan gasket and put the engine back in. 2 days later, he was out enjoying the car. It's all about what YOU want when it's done. Good luck with getting it on the road ASAP.

Yes, this is what I'm struggling with right now. I don't want to get too far in to this and end up shelling out a bunch of time and money.

The rear main is actually dry. It did leak from the rear pan area around the three tabs. That I will endeavor to fix with the new pan gasket.

The fact is, this engine runs better than it ought to. With the previous setup with a too tight B&M holeshot 2000 converter and 3.73 gears, it ran 104.5mph through the traps in 8500 ft air at 3630 lbs. That from a very basic 455 with a set of as cast KRE D-ports and a small 232/238 hydraulic roller.

The lifters are noisy, but I haven't had any reliability issues with them. I had them out for inspection last year and they all looked fine. I'm not going to take the intake off if I don't need to.

My thinking right now is that I might go with that Nitemare performance pan and pump upgrade. I have to do something about the cracked windage tray anyhow, and my pan has no baffles in it at all. The way I drive the car, I should have a decent pan on this engine.

I did also inspect the timing chain from the top and it's still tight. I'm not sure the manufacturer, but it's a double roller type.

[JLMounce]

Pulled the #3 main cap since it’s going to have to come off to install the dipstick anyway. Only very minor wear on the bearing and the journal is in near perfect shape.

Seeing this, I’m not even going to bother taking any other main or rod caps off. This engine has years of life left as it’s currently being used.

I’m ordering the intense pan and pump, getting that installed and moving on from this whole affair.