[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Seems like most of the backlash I get on street cars when someone tries a higher stall converter is from the feel of the converter below the flash point. The terminally is all over the place for describing how the converters act. As long as the converter holds the power, most of the street guys that never take their car to the track don’t seem to care that much about whether or not the converters slips a few percent at the top end of the track, but they do seem care about the cars feel at the lower RPMs.

Many of us (including me) that are drag racers care more about how it couple on the top end than what the converter doesn’t do below 2000.

Yeah, I'm in both camps and probably more of a unicorn case. My stuff is primarily street cars, some daily driven, but I also strive to make them run as well as possible for the given combo and will tune and change things until I accomplish that.

So a converter has to work well in both scenarios for me, and a good converter company can do that, it just takes some persistence, some testing, and usually 2-3 tries with a converter company until that goal is reached. Sometimes as I've found, they just can't get there.

With that particular car I could tell as soon as I installed the converter and drove it up the street whether or not it was going to be a winner or not before I even went to the track.
I have a bunch of video of the car at the track and it's hilariously apparent how bad it drove through the first few converters tried. I'm talking about a 1 speed transmission that wouldn't pull the engine down at all. In fact one of them the engine just stayed at 6,000 rpm down the whole track and never changed

[Lee]

Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint

A loose convertor not only will have a higher stall speed, it will "couple" less efficiently than a "tight" convertor, causing more slippage friction and heat. Additionally, a loose convertor may even affect your stop speed and cruise RPM as the convertor is just "slippy" even at high RPM.

I swapped my 3500 stall TCI with forumite Lee Atkins (who was trying to squeeze a bit more out of his 11 second Firebird) for his tight 2800 stall Hughes Convertor. He tried mine and it actually slowed his car down and lost some mph through the traps due to the slippage.

I then got another converter from Hughes, and it also would not hold my motor.

There is a lot of different ways to get to a certain "stall speed". I called Hughes directly, and told them what their converter was doing, what the converter from NC had done, what the first converter (Hughes GM25) had done, and what I wanted.

To their credit, Hughes took the converter back for credit, and made me a totally different converter. THAT converter would flash to 3200+rpm off the line, providing me with 1.53 60' times on 275/60 drag radials, yet was drove quite nicely around town and on the highway.

[Formulajones]

Hughes is who built the current converter that finally grabs a hold of dad's engine. 764 ft lbs and just 3.42 gears in a 4100lbs car makes it a challenge.

I was actually quite shocked on their first try it was snug, drove nice, and performed well at the track. First converter company to get that done on the first try. When I told Steve what the rpm drop was on gear changes he felt he could make it better and wanted it back. Since they are in Phoenix I could drive it down and drop it off. I dropped it off on a Thursday morning and he called me Friday afternoon ready to pick up. Too late in the day for me to get there before they closed so he said "no problem I'll next day air it to ya" Didn't charge me a dime and it was at my doorstep Saturday at noon. I had the car back on the road by 1 pm and ready for another test session.

He nailed it, still drove perfect on the street, almost like there was no stall converter in it but performed even better at the track.

Can't say enough about how I'm treated at Hughes. Although I've spent a lot of money there but still, customer service has been top notch and I've gotten nothing but excellent quality from them. They've went out of their way on more than one occasion for me.

[ta man]

Originally Posted by Jay S

Seems like most of the backlash I get on street cars when someone tries a higher stall converter is from the feel of the converter below the flash point. The terminally is all over the place for describing how the converters act. As long as the converter holds the power, most of the street guys that never take their car to the track don’t seem to care that much about whether or not the converters slips a few percent at the top end of the track, but they do seem care about the cars feel at the lower RPMs.

Many of us (including me) that are drag racers care more about how it couple on the top end than what the converter doesn’t do below 2000.

Bottom sentence exactly for me...and still running the 3200 "Jim Hand" convertor..

[Cliff R]

I tried to use Hugh's to build our converters way back when I was still doing a LOT of transmissions in the shop and wanting to supply custom torque converters with them.

We tried but they couldn't make a converter that worked as well as the 10" Continental units we ended up going with.

The first 10" unit Hugh's sent was a complete "turd". Our 455 engine pushed right thru it and it went to 4500rpm's or a tad higher anytime you hit it with full power and never coupled well at all. I sent it back, second try was better but still a tad too loose for my liking.

Third try was really pretty decent. Flashed to about 3400rpm's on a full throttle start with good traction, and only about 400rpm slip on top end.

Went to Coan next, and almost the same exact story but slightly more slip on top end.

Had been conversing with Jim Hand at that time and went to Continental for the "tight" 10" unit. It was spot on right out of the box, well, at least for 455 builds making gobs of torque and shifting around 5000-5500rpm's. As good as they worked there they did NOT work well for 400 builds trying to do the same thing, and even a little but too tight for some lower compression 428/455 builds with a tad too much cam in them ("hefty" cams on tight LSA's with a lot of overlap). So I had Kris send me some "samples" of the 10" and started testing them. This produced several different "versions" of the 10" unit that worked really well and we were able to spec them out for 400 builds and other set-ups that wanted consideraby more torque multiplication than the original tight 10" unit was capable of. I'll add right here that a couple of those converters didn't make the grade at all, so trials and tribulations are pretty much the norm with these things.

So bottom line here is that even armed with all the information a converter company may or may not be able to build one that makes the grade, or at least it may take them a few tries to nail things down........FWIW.....

PS: coincidentally and impecable timing I just got this note this morning on a recent TSP converter I spec'd out for a customer:

Hi Cliff,
I just wanted to take a minute and tell you that my engine and transmission are back in the car, and I'm just tickled pink with the results. I've had a silly grin on my face for days now. The converter you ordered for me (came from TSP) seems to be spot on for my purposes. I can't really do a "power brake" and launch test with the 235/60-15 Cooper Cobra tires because they have no bite. In fact, anything less than a 15 MPH roll puts me fishtailing! But based on my past Hot Rods I would say the converter is dead on the money for my 461 build. Thanks for your help in selecting it! In case you want to read on, I'm also very pleased all in all with the entire combination. Your cam grind (the XXXX-XXXXXX) has good street manners, but produces PLENTY of torque anywhere from idle to 5500 where I shift. The car is just slightly intimidating, it reminds me just a bit of an exotic animal as a pet. You want to to play with it, but watch out - those claws and fangs are sharp! Thanks again! - XXX XXXXX

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

So bottom line here is that even armed with all the information a converter company may or may not be able to build one that makes the grade, or at least it may take them a few tries to nail things down........FWIW.....

X 2 ...... First experience with Continental; we were working working on a quick 401 AMC and wanted a 3800 stall converter with good street manors. Recieved something that stalled around 5k and dropped zero RPM's on part throttle shifts. Received the converter on Friday sent it back on Monday to have it fixed. Reinstalled the corrected Continental converter and it stalled to 4400 and drove like a mid seventies six cylinder Granada. Sent the converter to JPT and they nailed it the first time. 3800 on the money, quickest ET and highest MPH first trip down the track. Drove like a 13" factory converter.

Years later had a customer running elevens with a basic 455 6X heads HFT cam using a Coan 11" converter. He hung out a lot on the Internet and got suckered into to buying a custom built 10" Continental. He had (paid a transmission shop) the converter installed just in time for Norwalk and flash backs from the AMC debacle came back to life. The tight "3200 stall" was closer to 4200, the driveabilty was a step above poop compared to the Coan. It killed the gas mileage driving out to Norwalk and the car slowed down a whole bunch. The owner thoroughly disappointed and motivated by disgust pulled the old Coan unit off the swap meet table and decided to install it in the pits at Norwalk. Bingo the car picked up ET, gained all the lost mph and the gas mileage jumped back up to normal on the drive home from Norwalk..... A hard couple of lessons learned.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

X 2 ...... First experience with Continental; we were working working on a quick 401 AMC and wanted a 3800 stall converter with good street manors. Recieved something that stalled around 5k and dropped zero RPM's on part throttle shifts. Received the converter on Friday sent it back on Monday to have it fixed. Reinstalled the corrected Continental converter and it stalled to 4400 and drove like a mid seventies six cylinder Granada. Sent the converter to JPT and they nailed it the first time. 3800 on the money, quickest ET and highest MPH first trip down the track. Drove like a 13" factory converter.

Years later had a customer running elevens with a basic 455 6X heads HFT cam using a Coan 11" converter. He hung out a lot on the Internet and got suckered into to buying a custom built 10" Continental. He had (paid a transmission shop) the converter installed just in time for Norwalk and flash backs from the AMC debacle came back to life. The tight "3200 stall" was closer to 4200, the driveabilty was a step above poop compared to the Coan. It killed the gas mileage driving out to Norwalk and the car slowed down a whole bunch. The owner thoroughly disappointed and motivated by disgust pulled the old Coan unit off the swap meet table and decided to install it in the pits at Norwalk. Bingo the car picked up ET, gained all the lost mph and the gas mileage jumped back up to normal on the drive home from Norwalk..... A hard couple of lessons learned.

What time frame was that for you Paul?

For me my experience with Continental like that was the last couple years in business when Kris explained to me how difficult it had become to get good cores and the parts he liked to use inside them.

The very early Continentals were fantastic, and I still have 2 of them I've kept on the shelf. The last 2 years of existence however the converters were miserable, went through 4 of them before I decided enough was enough and I had to switch gears to another company. Wasn't Kris' fault really, just couldn't get the parts he used to get.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

What time frame was that for you Paul?

.

Around 1995 for the AMC and approximately 2005 for the Pontiac

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Around 1995 for the AMC and approximately 2005 for the Pontiac

That's in the time frame I was having good success with his converters. This was in mid 11 second street cars. I'm talking 500-600 HP stuff. It was the last couple years he was in business when I couldn't seem to get one on the same level I did previously with similar powered cars. Then dad pushed the power up making the problem worse and it became a game of swapping converters fairly regularly.

[Jay S]

I am curious Paul, is the 10” Jim Hand tight Continental converter that you mentioned that went from a 3200 flash to a 4200 flash with more engine still working ok? Was the engine starting to push thru the converter on the top end of the track?


Pretty amazing how mixed people’s results are from different converter companies. Heck we have an old 3500 10” GER converter in a car that works good yet, which falls under “even a blind squirrel gets a nut every once and a while”. Lol

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Jay S

I am curious Paul, is the 10” Jim Hand tight Continental converter that you mentioned that went from a 3200 flash to a 4200 flash with more engine still working ok? Was the engine starting to push thru the converter on the top end of the track?



Pretty amazing how mixed people’s results are from different converter companies. Heck we have an old 3500 10” GER converter in a car that works good yet, which falls under “even a blind squirrel gets a nut every once and a while”. Lol

Yes the 10" Continental is still alive and well. It found a home in a low eleven second pump gas combination. Just to be clear it was labeled as the JH 3200 from the dealer. It was closer to 4200 out of the box.... Maybe it's because my engines make a chit ton more power than what the converter guys are used to seeing

I agree about the difference. One thing you have to take into consideration is how many folks have something to "compare it too". I'm guessing more people than not, buy their "tight" converter and install it with the new engine and call it a day. They believe it's tight because that's what they were sold.

Just the other day a nice gentleman sent me his time slip showing the performance gain he was rewarded with his new converter. He gained quite a bit of ET but lost 3 mph. Upon for questioning we figured out the new converter was slipping more than 10%..... Now is that a tight converter or a loose converter!

I've often said most racers best converter is the one they borrowed from their buddy because it didn't work for his application.

[Cliff R]

I test just about everything, so the information I post is from actually taking these converters, installing them, then doing some street driving and going to the track to see where the actual stall speeds are, slippage on top end, etc.

Of course I sell a lot of converters that aren't actually tested and get a lot of good data from folks who end up with them.

Kind of interesting but back when I was building transmissions I insisted that we install a new converter with them. So wanted to make sure that we were doing the very best we could for our customers. Folks reading these threads need to realize that converters respond to engine power, resistance to roll-out, traction, drivetrain set-up, etc. So there is or will never be a single on-size-fits-all converter.

Case in point. We tried a Continental "tight" 10" unit behind a pretty stout 400 build a few years back. It was a complete TURD. The converter acted closer to a stock 13" unit aside from going to about 2300-2400 rpms hit with full power and traction, but even so 60' times were horrible and the entire combination just hated it. We ended up going to much looser converter based on the same 10" core and low and behold the "little" 400 turned into a "animal" in that car. Difficult if not near IMPOSSIBLE to hold on street tires, even sticky ones. A the track it went into the 1.5's for 60' times and solidly into the 11's at the track over 116mph. Before the converter swap my John Deere riding mower was quicker in 60' times and would have given it a run for it's money to the 200' mark!

A few years later I took in a 1970 Buick Stage 1 455 car after a complete restoration and "fresh" 455 engine build by a legendary Buick "guru" who'd been building them since Moby Dick thought he was a minnow. I ended up getting the car here after the restoration and engine install (long story but EVERYONE was kicking me in the nutts for idle issues blaming the Q-jet I restored for it when it was nothing more than a faulty Pertronix unit). Anyhow, the 455 engine was high compression and minor head work, and a larger than stock T/A cam, but a complete TURD when you drove it except for WOT past about 3500rpm's or so. Otherwise, the big Buick would barely spin the tires if you dropped it off a floor jack at WOT. Just a "slug" everyplace.

While it was here I contacted the owner, told him the running issues were repaired, but the car was a "slug" . He agreed to a converter swap before it left here. Continental was running out of cores and going out of business or just went out (can't remmeber which) so I contacted Jim Weise for on of his TSP converters. It shows up in a pretty small box, no bigger than the soup bowl I had my lunch in that day, and I'm not beleiving this converter is going to be up to the task of holding this 455 engine in a neary 4000 pound car with the big high compression 455 in it. I was wrong. The converter gave the car a whole new attitude and turned it into a "animal". You barely knew it was in there for "normal" driving, but any heavy/full throttle hits you were doing everything in your power to keep it between telephone poles and damn glad you weren't wearing a hat or sunglasses because they would have been up in the back window!

So with converters nearly every application is "special" to some extent, and very few if any will have the exact same requirements. A lot of it boils down to the folks who build them, and use their experience and expertise with these things to produce a final product that's well suited to the application and needs of the customer. I'm pretty good at it, been selling converters from two different companies well over 20 years now. We hit most of them pretty well, but not always. To date I've had at least two customer absolutely HATE the Continental converter we had built for them, and two the same with the TSP units. Taking careful notes and learning from experience one common denominator with 3 out of the 4 were engines will lower compression and pretty "hefty" cams in them on really tight LSA's. So there is somthing to be said for building an engine with low vacuum at idle and "soggy" low end power then trying to crutch that deal with a converter.

I'll also add one more thing here before sitting down. I've had quite a few cars in here to custom tune, many of the owners had bought "generic" converters from Summit or Jegs. Quite often they would be one of the Hugh's offerings, 2500 BOP for example, TCI Streetfighter was another. I was NEVER once impressed anyplace with those converters. Compared to what I had built, installed and sold I found them to be "mushy" just about everywhere I'm not talking slipping like crazy or poorly coupled, just a little too loose for my liking or at least not nearly as good as what we were using. Even with that said in almost all cases the owners thought they were a "home-run" for what they were doing. So it just goes to show that even personal experiences, likes and dislikes can vary considerably when it come to this topic.......

[OZZIEVILLE 67 2 door]

Thanks Cliff
I learnt a bit more about converters.

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