[Elarson]

The Hogan price is for a one-of-a kind. In their words..."everything we make is custom".

They made our intake for the Boss Bird engine. The final price was right off their published list on the website; even though it doesn't fit any other engine in the world. And they were fast too. As I recall, it was less than 4 weeks.

Eric

[428RA4]

So in conclusion, I don't see profitability with this project, but I do see a lot of learning and having fun. I believe the Tiger head project that Don has done does have a lot of merit and the market is wide for said project. Anything V will be painful. Go ask Lynn before you decide to try on ankle weights and go swimming.

On the other hand, if he can bang out 50 sets of heads and sell them as blanks and let the owners deal with the rest, I see that as profitable, but that is a pretty big what if.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by 428RA4

OK -

So here is my latest brain fart. I'm getting an intake made. A dual quad single plane intake based on the Ford tunnel port version. When it's done, and depending upon the end results, I would be willing to let Don borrow it for cloning.

Clearly this would be an alternative to getting an original intake which I believe shall be very difficult, if not impossible.

I also know of a company that can scan the intake and deliver files.

mike

Mondello's in TN could do the whole thing... prototype to scan to cnc... (billet aluminum or modern plastic)... also know who it could get it cast if someone is willing to invest... (high quality aluminum or modern plastics)... Making an intake that fits vs one that works with the combo its bolted to is no small feat.

IMO more cooperation, less competition between shops and suppliers we could get most anything done... lots of talent and resource out there.

ALSO takes customers willing to buy the first pieces vs waiting for someone else to "prove them worthy"... far too many among us only wanting to be "as good as" vs being "better than" or different from the rest of the crowd.

Good luck with this venture Don.

[tom s]

Actually Lynn single plane intake is VERY nice.I would buy one in a heart beat if I need a single 4 intake.I have not tried the tunnel ram but looks good,not sure how much can be cut from the plenum for hood room.Tom

[428RA4]

Well Tom -

If you want to bone up on a quad intake, I'm sure I could get you a good deal since we will have the mock-up block in place soon to turn the intake. All you need is a Ford tunnel port intake and the rest would follow.

The last one on ebay went for 1ooo K

[tom s]

I have a 2-4 in my garage right now.Would not go thru that again!I think I would take a look at Lynns 2-4 to see what could be done with it.The ford to five was a ordeal I dont wish to tackle again.Twice is enough.Good luck,Tom

[aronhk_md]

BTW....you cant base the potential for Don's RA V head off Lynn's experience. Two totally different animals. If you dont know what I mean find someone who has a set of Lynn's heads and has BUILT an engine with them (not someone who put a pair on the shelf for the future) and ask them for specifics.

[Ron H]

Originally Posted by aronhk_md

BTW....you cant base the potential for Don's RA V head off Lynn's experience. Two totally different animals. If you dont know what I mean find someone who has a set of Lynn's heads and has BUILT an engine with them (not someone who put a pair on the shelf for the future) and ask them for specifics.

I'm not sure you can compare the turbo build with any other. That is a one off situation there. Makes no sense in any direction it is looked at or from.

Since there is a cast intake that could possibly be matched up with spacers then the cast intake base is covered. As Brians said, continue putting your resources into making the heads as you envisioned them to be and work out the bolt ons later.

No matter what, anyone who decides they want to switch to an RAV set up knows it is not a simple swap and requires bolt ons and custom or very difficult pieces to find.

[aronhk_md]

Ron, I wasnt referring to a turbo build regarding Lynn's heads. My statement was intended to say that the potential sales of Don's new RA V heads cannot (in my opinion) be based upon what Lynn's sales were on his heads. To find out why I have that opinion anyone can contact me of course, but also I believe that a conversation with anyone who has built an engine using Lynn's heads will lead to understanding why I have that opinion as well.

The heads are different, the time is different and I believe Don can succeed regardless of what went before with other heads.

On that other note regarding an intake...if an intake is available for $1000 or less...and I dont mean a 2x4 specifically...I believe the chances of success are greater. The heads themselves are not priced THAT far above a set of ported KRE's. Its the extras like headers and an intake that are going to make some say.....cant jump that high.

[65nss4spdGTO]

I can certainly see both sides on this one. If the head was an exact copy of the original head and had an intake to go with it, a number of units would be sold. Would it out sell the Edelbrock Performer or KRE D-Port, the highest selling aftermarkets heads for the Pontiac? I doubt it would unless all the other items became off the shelf, headers, valve train, ect. I do think someone could make some money casting a replica of the manifold, even more so if Don's head can use it.

The other side is the street guys and racers looking to step up from the E-head. With all of the aftermarket heads out, each one is a compromise. Everything from casting quality to performance has played a huge role in the decision for E-head customers to upgrade. While the power leaders are the Tiger and HP, the door is still open for other race heads that will make more power for our 500ci to 565ci engines. The layout of the V has a big advantage over the others, the CSA is another area the design has merit.

Again the benefits Don has tried to incorporate, valve height, angle and the way he is addressing the port shape for the push rod should show huge improvements over the original design. He has also tried to incorporate the external look as best he can given the raised port design.

Until heads are cast and further testing is done, there are many unknowns. I give Don credit for staying the course and working to bring a new product to market.

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[Probird]

Well said Calvin...I would consider this route for a race engine but I don't have the contacts that Eric has to build an intake to fit. Maybe it doesn't take having contacts to get it done but it would be a factor in my decision to buy the heads in the first place if I had to deal with getting one made. To a lot of guys it can be intimidating trying to get custom made stuff done the first time. The guys who have done it probably don't see it that way but if it's the first time for someone it can turn a guy to just buy something readily available without all the hassles of custom one off pieces to make the puzzle to fit together and meet their performance goals. I would want to deal with Don and get everything as a package deal. If I were to just buy the heads and was told to deal with the intake, cam, and headers on you own, I would be very hesitant to buy the heads in the first place. I believe that will be the major decision by most in buying a set of these heads. If the other components aren't readily available guys won't want to go out of their way to do the work to get all the other parts made to get these heads to work. In my opinion it will need to be a package deal to sell many heads. If you could call Don and say I want a set of RA V heads, a sheetmetal or cast intake to fit (and let Don deal with Hogan or who ever), a readily available came core to grind a cam, and a set of headers that would fit, he would probably hit a homerun with these. If not it will be a very limited number of guys willing to do the homework on their own to get a set up and running. That's my opinion anyway.

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by 428RA4

... Pontiac Tunnel Port Hemi head...

What does "tunnel port" mean with a hemi head?

[mgarblik]

The "cool" factor of the RAV can't be overstated here. If the head casting quality and other build factors can be worked out, there will be a fairly decent sized group of buyers for these heads for their resto-mod Pontiacs and hot street cars who just want something different, PONTIAC and cool. They need to run great but out of the box, not an over the top performer to be a decent seller. I, for one consider these heads the one style I would be willing to cut up my original 68 400 Firebird for to fit a set. A friend of mine has a Cobra kit car with a tunnel port 427 FE, and you would not believe the attention that car gets everywhere he goes. It runs great too making a little over 700 HP. I think a cast intake would be a big advantage for people like me, but having to have one made is not a show stopper. Don has the history and the proven track record to make these heads great.

[ho428]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

The "cool" factor of the RAV can't be overstated here.

They need to run great but out of the box, not an over the top performer to be a decent seller.
I, for one consider these heads the one style I would be willing to cut up my original 68 400 Firebird for to fit a set. .

Ditto, ^
But the bottom line is: No cool looking, performing streetable intake equals very-very few street head sales.
Personally, I think more Street packages would be sold than race heads.

A stroker kit in a 400 with a RA-V top end is about the ultimate looking Pontiac street engine when the hood is popped on a late 60's to early 70's Pontiac. Ranks right up there with the dual quad 421 SD's of the early 60's, and Boss 429's, IMHO.

[tom s]

Actually some will ask you why you put a ford in your Pontiac!Tom

[Elarson]

Don could make the Hogan intake project pretty easy for anybody to tackle (if the $$ are there).

1) Don provides a drawing of the port layout to Hogan.

2) Don provides the spacing across the engine for (2) opposing heads on a standard deck height engine. Something like the dimension from the RH port floor entrance to the LH port floor entrance, for instance. The customer can then advise Hogan if they are using a different deck height, what intake gasket thickness, head gasket thickness, etc. and a compensation can be easily made.

3) Don or the customer reminds Hogan of the standard offset of the LH bank to the RH bank.

4) The customer specifies the carburetor/EFI/nitrous bung/water crossover combination that they want and the height allowable under the hood of the particular application.

Hogan builds an intake to their standard price list. They have some sort of really good fabrication fixture that does not require them to have an assembled engine. All they need is the data described above. This is exactly how we had the Boss Bird blower intake built.......prior to having finished heads in our hands.

As far as headers go, Don could provide a .dxf file of the port layout and the flanges can be waterjet cut. The Boss Bird header flanges (3/8" thick 4130 steel) were $75 each and took one day to make. Then it's off to your favorite header fabricator.

Hope this helps,
Eric

[ho428]

Originally Posted by tom s

Actually some will ask you why you put a ford in your Pontiac!Tom

True that but, then you get to look them in the eye and say...

Dumbass...

[tom s]

Hogan has made a V intake,header flanges are for sale on eBay and mad dog,mad dog makes first gen bird headers,call comp they will make you a V cam.If someone really wants to build a engine it's not impossible.As said Lynn's single 4 is a nice piece,just need to address the x over.Larry Long at Arrowhead automotive in Ohio took a KRE x over and did what was needed to fit the V pattern.Now there is enough info to get started.Tom

[dci]

It appears that there is going to be more street versions than race at this time from the postings here and the phone calls I am getting. So with that I think that tooling up for an intake is probably going to be a priority for me. I have a couple of idea's that I want everyone to ponder before I forge forward with this.

1 Make an intake that has a removable top so that a single or dual 4 set up can be used. One problem I see with this would be a very large plenum to make it adaptable. This may not be an issue, but it could be.

2 Make a direct copy of the factory dual 4 single plane intake that could be used on the factory heads or my heads with adapters. The only problem with this one,I would be limiting my market to people wanting dual quads.As well as stated here not very many original heads out there.

3 Making cast runners about 4" in length that could could be used for different scenarios. Such as building a single or dual 4 intake. Or using them to build a Hillborn/Kinsler style fuel injection set up. Or maybe even running weber down draft carbs.

Now me personally I like that last idea (#3), but again I think it will limit my audience. So my business sense tells me to make (#1) since it will fit a wider audience. I am also working on a sheet metal intake idea with a company right now. They like my idea of machining all the pieces to fit together. That way I can use a chemical resistant epoxy to assemble them without welding. Or for that matter the end user could assemble it like a model car kit.

As Tom stated, mad dog already has headers for the early F body and they said they would be more than happy to make them for the A bodies and 2nd gen F bodies.
I am working on getting cams produced in some kind of assembly line format for lack of a better term. To try and get the cost down a little. So I am aware of everyone's concerns and trying to get all the the details worked out. This way it will be as seamless as possible for the end user.



Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air V Heads !!!!!

[428RA4]

Originally Posted by Jack Gifford

What does "tunnel port" mean with a hemi head?

Pontiac made an experimental Tunnel Port Hemi head. IF you want to sell to the race guys, this is what should be built in my opinion.