[aronhk_md]

I think the answer is...why NOT make it externally look like a 44? Few enough people have seen the real thing to immediately discern the changes. I personally think Don has managed a good balance between aiming at street users and racers. For racers its ALL there. For street users some mild (its not like fabricating all the stuff for a turbo car) mods and you have a RA V street car.

Had he aimed just for street users trying to pass their engine as a real RA V setup THEN I think he would have seriously limited his market.

[tom s]

Too expensive for most street guys.Tom

[428RA4]

All good points, but everything is speculation until someone does it. I will watch with excitement like the rest of us, but I just ponder the mix in said project. What compiles the mystery is the need to make an intake whereas none is slated for production.

I wish Don all the best, but the challenges ahead may be great to get this off the ground past the model stage.

The whole thing sounds pricey with unknown end results.

[428RA4]

Again, to me, it would be more productive and I believe more profitable to make a Pontiac Tunnel Port Hemi head. A traditional combustion chamber was never as good as a Hemi for racing and who cares if you cut up a firewall to fit it into a race car.

[67copperbird]

Guys, if you all notice, I said I was not his target market. As far as John building an intake for me, that would only be a dream. I would be honored to have one. He does really good work. My only concern would be that his heart wouldn't be into it due to it being a compromise to fit under the hood. In my mind it would be like having Picasso touch up a wall in one of our houses. As far as why I need it to fit under a fairly stock hood, well that is an easy explanation. I would challenge anyone to run a road course with a 6" cowl hood.

[tom s]

I think Don has designed a good race V head!I cant wait for someone to actually do a all out 1000 HP,2 HP per CI engine.I also want to see someone actually build a real street engine that will run on 91-93 pump gas,something in the 455-480 CI range with a 250ish cam,something that can be driven a 100 miles a day and in bumper to bumper traffic,in TX summer heat, no question about gas quality etc.Tom

[67copperbird]

Tom I agree with all these cylinder head options, I wish we all could come up with some dollars to make these builds happen.

[dci]

Aron hit the nail on the head. I wanted the head to be identifiable and that's the reason for the exterior appearance nothing more. After seeing the pic of the under hood on your car 428RA4. I don't think there is going to be a clearance issue with the wiper motor. My head is only about 1 1/2 " inches taller than stock, and in your picture it looks like there is about 3 1/2 - 4 " of clearance. Unless the angle is making it look like that. As far as a low rise intake, I definitely think that it is doable. My brother has a 67 Firebird that we are going to build a 428 DCI RAV for and he wants to maintain the stock 400 hood as well. So I am starting to see a trend for the street users. The racers will probably want sheet metal intakes anyway, and those can all be custom built.

I don't want people to misunderstand the intentions of this head. This is not for everyone and I know that. These are for the guy that is looking for something different, but still has Traditional Pontiac heritage. I could have very easily copied a stock head and it probably would sell as well. I personally did not want that. I cannot help myself when it comes to building and designing these things. I have to make it bigger,better,stronger, and faster LOL.


Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air V Heads !!!!!

[428RA4]

Some dollars?

hmm...

Start by selling one of your testicles to science and you can have that motor~! Spoken by a man that has sold many things to play with something else besides balls.

[tom s]

Im not sure how many V enegines I have built now,2 short decks,a alu factory block and at least 3 real V engines with V blocks etc and a couple V topended engines.The mystic is still there I have a complete one in my garage right now with one of the VERY few factory 4.21 3in main Kellogs cranks in a real V block with virtually all factory V parts including dist,carb etc.I did not use the factory rods though.Carillos are in it.Just not sure how many wacos are out there in this economy.Tom

[428RA4]

Well Tom. So far I count 3 or 4 wackos right here...

Don -

I just took this shot in the garage to give you an idea of what people shall be dealing with. There is two inches between the top of the valve cover and bottom of the wiper casing. You also have to be aware that you need room to remove the valve cover for service. That means removing the wiper motor any time you want to gain access to that side of the valve train. It's not a deal breaker, but a pain in the ass none the less which may require pulling the body colored cowl. Not sure, don't want to find out.

The other concern would be the heater core hose bibs on the opposite side. It's already super tight between the head and firewall. Any more thickness towards the firewall will be an issue.

So with your heads, you have a 1/2 clearance to deal with.

Oh - and the power brake booster may be an issue as well.

mike

[67copperbird]

Heater clearance isn't an issue for me. For me the interest in V heads is in having something different. I am glad I have waited to buy engine parts. To many new developments coming out. My ideal build is an AL IA2 block, V headed, steel rod, billet crank 505. My horsepower goal is mid 700's. I am building my bird for pro-touring events. I would like to find a hood like the "spotts 400 hood". My understanding is that they are still made, but a little harder to get now. This would give me the look I am after, and more clearance.

[67copperbird]

Enough on my junk. Don, please keep us updated and keep up the good work. Looking forward to seeing the results.

[Tom Vaught]

If you put a DCI V-head on your engine you will also spend the money for things like Smaller Diameter Brake Boosters OR HYDRO_BOOST. The also would spend the money on custom valve covers that are split in the middle and can be removed fairly easily once you understand how to remove them (some Ford guys have done this in the past) and used a grooved seal design between the upper and lower section.

One of those deals where IF you really want the heads then you figure out how to make the other parts work WITH the new head design. "Think out of the box"

Tom Vaught

[428RA4]

Cool -

Your build shall start at 10 grand on the cheap end and could go to 20 with a custom intake.

[Kevspontiacs@aol.com]

im sure the valve cover rail could be trimmed down with out affecting the rocker arm clearance. if your goin to run vacuum brakes that means youve got a small cam in there so you could,in theory, take even more off

[ho428]

I have no problem with the new V heads being offered for street use. Factory Iron heads and intake are cost prohibitive.
What I do want, is it to fit under the hood of my 68 Bird, Lynn's single intake probably but what I really want is a low rise dual 4 intake.
Maybe Lynn and Don can get together and make sure their intakes will swap back and forth, and come up with a new design low rise dual quad rather than all the work required to modify a Ford intake to fit.
Then we'd have a single, low rise dual and high rise race.

The main reason I haven't bought yet isn't the costs, it's seeing a street engine built and tested in a car using these new parts and say a 4.0-4.25 stk crank in a 400 block.
My V is a hyd roller 433, but with 48's, a P65 and dual Carters, fits under the hood nicely.
Running manual disc brakes isn't an issue.

[dci]

This is my concern when it comes to making a cast intake. Some will want a single 4 some want dual 4's. I don't know for sure what the market is for the heads and surely do not know what it is for an intake. and I really do not want to make a big $$$$ mistake going the wrong direction. I have considered making a factory replacement dual quad intake like the stock GM one, but I do not have one to copy. Since the bolt pattern and port arrangement is the same for my head and the factory heads. It would be easy enough to just cut the water crossover off for my heads or leave it on for the factory heads. The only problem is the cost for the intakes would be way more than most will be willing to pay in my opinion. Everyone has to remember that tooling cost allot of money and when doing a project like this you have to determine what the market is, how many can be sold, and how long does it take to recover your investment before making a profit. Just using random numbers because I don't know for sure how much the tooling is. Let's say total cost is $50,000 (just an estimate) and and we estimate the market at 25 intakes a year (BIG IF) and we have a profit of say $300.00(this is not what the intake will cost just the profit). It would take a little over 6 1/2 years just to recover your investment. That is before making a profit which I know people think that we can survive without LOL. So with that being said you can see why I don't want to make the wrong move. So the only way I could justify doing an intake. The profit margin would have to be higher to recoup my investment quicker or it would just not be worth doing.


As for clearance issues. I don't know how many of you have seen a factory big block Camaro, but they have a different heater box and heater core to clear the engine. I have also installed taller valve covers on big block Camaro's and have dealt with booster clearance a couple of different ways. One which is simple and works most of the time, is to pull on the booster and master cylinder to move it away from the engine. The firewall is flimsy enough that you can get it to move about a 1/2". The other is to install a newer small diameter dual diaphragm booster. It has been awhile since I had to do a valve adjustment on a big block Camaro, but I do remember it was a little challenging to do.



Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-850-5050 shop
330-628-3354 cell
Designer of the DCI Tiger Heads and the NEW DCI Ram Air V Heads !!!!!

[ho428]

Don,
As I see it, and I could be wrong, for anyones V heads to be offered as a legit street package a good low rise intake of some sort will have to be offered. Building an intake from scratch just ain't gonna happen for most of us.
And not many guys want a hi-rise or sheet metal intake sticking through the hood on a street car. The low rise single plane will fit but a dual plane would probably perform better at the lower street rpms. But, I'd guess that the single is cheaper to cast though.

My reason for the low rise dual's is mainly esthetics, on the street this would probably not be the intake of choice, but for a cruise in, car show, street-drag car I already run one, and I'd buy one for the V heads.

You could possibly sell more street heads with an intake and make up some of the difference of intake costs in overall volume. Little bit of a gamble, but no intake limits the street head market severely.

[428RA4]

ho428 -

I'm actually in the process of getting a dual quad single plane intake made from a Ford intake. I feel the demand for a dual quad intake is much higher then a single plane because it has already been done. And yes, it will fit under the hood and even with Ram Air pans. Since I work in trade show manufacturing doing graphics, I have access to all kinds of toys to prototype parts. Well, everything except castings.

So yeah, 5 grand for an intake is pretty much the target. I really wish someone would build a Hemispherical Tunnel Port head. I know it would be a ton of work, but the return on investment would be there in my projections.

Don -

I think the key here is to offer a complete package as best you can. I'm very interested in your head redesign and look forward to the outcome, but to have to modify all kinds of crap just to make the motor work is a buzz kill. It's a pain enough to build a factory like V. That's just me. If I was building a race car, I really would not care that much about modifications because it would be expected with that project.

If you did a factory V quad intake, I would have my pants down around my ankles for 2 or 3 units. With your modified head, it would only work with your head which really limits your market. To be honest, you are treading into some very unknown territory. You have bigger balls then me for sure.

If memory serves me, a Chevrolet engine is not as far back as a Firebird engine in an F body. John DeLorean did this on purpose to help with the cars center of gravity.

To be honest Don, you have a very difficult decision to deal with before you jump in head first. Do you satisfy the racers and go with a modified head that will perform better then a stock configuration and by how much better is what you need to ask yourself.

OR

Do you go with a factory fitment and reach a compromise to enlarge your market share.

OR

You do something completely different then what you planned.

OR

Realize the investment is not worth it and you could mortgage your house because of it.


Since Lynn has tried this, I'm just wondering if it makes sense to dive into this project as you have planned. I'm trying to be objective here and not an ass hole about this....