[AMX guy]

I'm in the process of getting my original WV code 389 tri power block machined and I have 2 cylinders that may need sleeves or thin wall liners.

I've read over and over you cannot sleeve a Pontiac or it will crack the head when you torque it. this makes no sense to me at all. my machinist says he can use a plate when he does it that will solve any issues . like myself he is tying to find an answer to this no sleeve thing before we proceed. we think .60 over would be doable if sleeves are not an option but we'd rather line it if possible.

I realize it would be better to start over with a new block but since I have the original M20 I'd like to keep the original engine in it for obvious reasons. I'm willing to do whatever is needed to accomplish this I just don't want to screw it up.



Any insight on this is welcome. I've never tried to save a questionable block before.

[64speed]

PM GTOFREEK he will tell you more information about machining a pontiac than you could ever comprehend

[Evil Stu]

I've got 40000 miles on a 455 with a sleeve in it. No problems.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Sleeving a Pontiac is no different than sleeving any block. I would definitely advise against thin wall sleeves for any performance application. A straight sleeve (3/32 wall minimum) should take care of any problem your block has as long as the machinist is familiar with straight sleeves.

[AMX guy]

I would agree a Pontiac should be no different, but the contrary is out there everywhere. even Butler Performance said thin walls only. maybe just an old wives tale ?

Is 3/32 going to be too much for a late 389 you think ? they're doing a sonic test on it in the next few days.

For what it's worth this will not be a performance use car. other than the occasional drive to the Tastee Treat and a show or two it isn't going to get much use at all.

I'm just trying to save the original engine for a rust free tri power 4spd original tiger gold '66. if I pull it off it will be the first truly original car I've ever owned.

[mgarblik]

If the block will clean up and be straight and round at +.060", I would do that rather than install any sleeves. That being said, if sleeves are needed a straight "repair" sleeve can be installed in a Pontiac block without any issue. The machine shop should bore the block and leave a shelf at the bottom of the bore for the sleeve to rest on. Using new sleeves is much more expensive and labor intensive than just boring and honing, but is done all the time. The surrounding cylinders to the sleeves will distort when the sleeves are installed. This will be fixed when they hone the block, hopefully with torque plates. The deck will also need to be squared-up after the sleeves are installed. No big deal. I personally would recommend getting quality American made ductile iron sleeves from a company like LA Sleeve or Darton. There is allot of crap out there, mostly made in India.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by AMX guy

I've read over and over you cannot sleeve a Pontiac or it will crack the head when you torque it. this makes no sense to me at all.

Post a link to where you've read this information.

Makes no sense to me, either, 'cause it's crazy talk.

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

Sleeving a Pontiac is no different than sleeving any block.

Originally Posted by mgarblik

If the block will clean up and be straight and round at +.060", I would do that rather than install any sleeves. That being said, if sleeves are needed a straight "repair" sleeve can be installed in a Pontiac block without any issue.

^^^ What they said, except I'd want a sonic-test of cylinder wall thickness at +.060. If it sonic-tests good...you're all set. I've seen some blocks (Chevy big-block) that will sonic test good at +.120. That all depends on how the block was cast to begin with.

Father-In-Law's Pontiac 455 block had a sleeve in each deck. If the sleeves are installed properly, they're (in some ways) better than the parent iron. Sleeves tend to be "better" iron than the blocks they're installed in.

I'm not saying I want a "rebuilt" block where all eight cylinders have been sleeved.

[AMX guy]

He said they use only LA sleeve. He said he'd leave a shelf and use a torque plate.

The sonic will be the ultimate test, but they say even .60 over is not desirable in a late 389. this is why we've been looking at sleeves. cost is not an issue.

I've read you can't sleeve a Pontiac several places, when Butler confirmed it that's when I took it serious. I really don't know how to defend or disagree with that other than to say that's what they told me. I would say maybe I misunderstood but I remember him telling me thin walls were my only option and he didn't recommend them for a performance build. which does not apply in my case.

Maybe if it proves out I need a sleeve I better call them again and clarify. my machinist says I'm on crack to say he can't sleeve it so what you guys are saying is starting to make sense.

[63gpman]

many of Pontiac 389's are running standard bore 400 pistons.

[vidguy]

Have you had the block Sonic checked to get actual data on the wall thickness? I'd invest in that first.

[AMX guy]

They should get it sonic tested maybe even tomorrow. but from what I'm told about late 389's I'm not getting my hopes up.

If I'm luckier than I normally am maybe custom .063 or something pistons will fix everything.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Custom piston folks know about what the next closest bore size would be to keep the bore to a minimum, so Pistons could be made. It's the rings that can be a bigger potential pain.

I'm not an expert but all the sleeve controversy has me baffled......

[AMX guy]

There may be some misunderstanding between myself and Butler after looking back at my notes. he may have thought I meant replace a damaged cylinder with a wet sleeve. I'm not even sure if that's possible on most gas engines but maybe that's where the confusion is.

In searching the web I did find where high performance Pontiac 455's have had all 8 sleeved on purpose.

In any event it sounds like dry sleeves are an option. now I guess wait for the sonic results .

[lust4speed]

Jury is still out on the two sleeves in my block - they were installed in 1985 and the engine has been street driven and raced, raced unmercifully, and now back to street driving with a little racing. You just never know though.

So that's the good news. Not so good news is I've had two late model 389 blocks sonic checked that would have been in the water jacket at .045" over. Then about the time I'm writing off the last years of the 389 block a late block comes in that would have been good at .065" over.

[steve25]

I took my 65 389 block out to .090" over years ago in a street motor build that by track times seen in a 3600 lb car was making 340 hp.

Today with how easy it is to fill a block half way and still have no cooling issues on the street I would not fret about going .060" over if need be!

[hurryinhoosier62]

The problem with thin wall sleeves is they are what they say they are: thin walled (.0625). That’s BEFORE they’re bored and honed. Wet sleeves are installed in many modern V-8s (Modular Fords and Hemis in particular) to increase bore size beyond what the OE intended.. Nearly all class 8 diesels use wet sleeves. I agree with Mick; late 389 blocks ca be a crap shoot when it comes to cylinder wall thickness. An old friend of mine( now deceased) raced a ‘66 Goat for years. When it came time to build the engine, he had the block sonic tested. The machinist informed him that the block couldn’t be bore because the wall thickness was .060.

[77 TRASHCAN]

I'm not understanding anyone even having a thought about wet sleeving an engine like a Pontiac, or any of the traditional V8 engines. They are simply not engineered to have wet sleeves installed in them. Yes, it could be done, but the original structure of the cylinders in the block are part of the foundation of the block, strength wise. We know that stock almost all O.E. Pontiac blocks are not the strongest to start with. Yes they will go 500HP OK, and even 600 some. But even at those levels the block is the weak point and using an IAII block is the only way to go...........

[Gary H]

Two sleeves on opposite banks will be no problem at all, wouldn't even think twice about it. However, when you put two sleeves on the same cylinder bank beside each other you could have issues especially if it's a big final bore size.

[68azbird]

Paul carter put 2 sleeves in a 400 block for me that was sitting outside in the weather for years. Water sat inside the cylinders and pitted the 2 cylinders pretty bad.
Paul did a great job. You can't even spot which cylinders have the sleeves. No problems with sleeves here.

[flamedabone]

I have two sleeves in my 400 based blower motor. 12 years on the street and dragstrip, maybe 100K miles or so? I did break a crank in half once, buy I can't blame the sleeves for that....

-Abone.