[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by ta man

I can guarantee most on this forum have clean engines. cleaner than the guy pouring tranny fluid in. As everybody knows you don' t get all the oil out on an oil change always a little left. If someone is filling the engine with ATF there will be ATF left in the engine after it is drained.

Mikes reply:

When I said that my Engine was cleaner, I was being facetious. The residual Trans. fluid stuck to everywhere will dillute into the oil and be like you put Marvel Mystery Oil in the Crank Case, what is wrong with that?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 455dan

I was asked to replace a leaking intake gasket on an unnamed family members Chevy SB. When I got the intake off- well this is what was inside.

I Very carefully wiped up what I could while using a shop vac, but No way was I going to flush that engine, like you posted It will plug the pickup screen and starve the pump.

I changed the oil and filter before handing it back. It is still running, but SMH

If I loved that family member, I would have pulled the Oil pan and cleaned the screen before and after the flush, with whatever, then put new oil and filter in it. JMO

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by steve25

Back in post #28 you can clearly see the long-term effects of the intake manifolds exhaust cross over roasting the engine oil.

Thankfully our Pontiacs have a push rod cover that negates that issue and in a series of the low compression Heads when the use of Catalytic converters was on the horizon, the factory went through the trouble of making the exhaust crossovers in the head castings smaller and adding a dead air space above them in the heads, so oil does not burn, as in that SBC photo, even under the valve cover area, in our Pontiac Heads.

Pontiac engineering seemed to know what Chevy did not care to address, that being exhaust systems restricted by a Catalytic, was going to kick up both back pressure and in turn heat, that would cause burning of a mineral based oil.

Mikes reply:

I bought a 1979 Dodge Van B-200 with a 360 Motor. I am ashamed to say that I was too busy working on the floor covering business to change my oil and too cheap.

The oil built up under the Intake was Paraffin(wax) I believe in the Oil and stuck to the underside. Years later I had to scrape that clogged mess off the bottom of the Intake Manifold. How embarrassing is that today?

Secondly, I followed an older man's ways of cleaning his classic car Engine: this is what he did, he put degreeser on the Engine and got it hot and went to the self-car pressure cleaning place to wash his Engine Hot. I was young and did that to my 1979 Dodge van and then I wonder why one of the cyl. had lower compression, cracked the ring or it rotated and lined up with the others, I suspected.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

ATF can make seals grow too, have to keep that in mind. Balancer seal immediately comes to mind.
.

Mikes reply:

I hate to even repeat this, but I was told by an older Mechanic that you put a cap full of Brake fluid in trans. fluid to swell the seals to stop a leak????

P.S. By the way Trans. fluid flush did "not" cause my rear main seal to leak. FWIW

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

From what I've read about ATF & seen in analysis tests is that ATF is actually much lower in detergents than normal oil, because ATF is only a hydraulic fluid and not exposed to internal combustion engine byproducts it does not need or have high concentrations of detergents & basically no or very low anti wear additives that engine oil has. So, ATF will not clean an engine anywhere near as good as regular oil will.

ATF may keep parts "wet" & if there is pressure it may keep bearings from touching moving parts, but with no anti wear or real lubricating properties the high wear & extreme pressure areas like cam/lifters do not have the needed protection, they are under full force of the valve springs the minute the engine is cranked over, & for 30 minutes straight the cam/lifters have basically zero protection. Same applies to other fluids like diesel or kerosene or raw fuel, they might be good cleaners but have no lubricating or anti wear properties and should not be ran full strength in any engine IMO.

Hopefully the comments & poll results (zero for pure ATF) will show that ATF has no place in an engine and does not clean anywhere near as good as engine oil or other products intended for that purpose. I noticed the last comment on the TH400 thread is now questioning if using pure ATF may have caused or contributed to the mystery noise in the engine... :google:

Here is a recent Blackstone analysis of Dex 3 ATF to show its make-up, notice the low detergents & very low phos/zinc & other anti-wear additives.

TAN: 0.7
Visc. @ 210F: 48.8 SUS
Water: 0.0
Insoluble: Trace

Aluminum: 0 Test by Blackstone Labs
Chromium: 0
Iron: 0
Copper: 0
Lead: 4
Tin: 0
Moly: 0
Nickel: 0
Manganese: 0
Silver: 0
Titanium: 0
Potassium: 0
Boron: 58
Silicon: 9
Sodium: 1
Calcium: 27
Magnesium: 2
Phosph: 159
Zinc: 17
Barium: 0

Mikes reply:

Your thorough in your research I'll give you that and persistent.

Keep in mind I did not do this, a Trans. Mechanic did. He ran a Vehicle with ATF for 300,000 miles and it was as clean as the day it came out of the factory. Argue with that and call him a lyer, I am only the messenger of the good news.

Would I try this in my car, the answer would be "NO", for 30 min., it does work and I can attest to it.

Case and point for those of you who did not read this before in my thread.

I used the ATF- treatment on a Ford Van and it cleaned out the Engine that we had just bought and we used it for about a year. When I sold it, the person was driving home and the oil light came on. It turns out that the oil pump needed to be replaced. So, luckily for me that I dushed out the Engine from the start and got a year out of it.

Most of what I have read works, it is up to you what method to use, all of them work to some degree. I have not heard of any that hurt an Engine, even Gasoline, scary...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

I think you may underrate the wear properties. It is used in Tremec manual trans.

Stan

Mikes reply:

I agree with this statement!

In addition, it is not the oil that cools the Engine, that's the radiators job, notwithstanding that conduction properties from oil to cast metal to coolant fluids occurs.

P.S. Mike uses ATF in his Gear Venders Transmission add-on and that is close to a manual Trans. as it gets, explain that one away, plus the manufacture says to use it...

Now I know why my ears were ringing, you should have invited me into this disruption...discussion...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Im not under rating them, the analysis shows there is very little to no anti wear additives that an engine requires. Transmissions or transfer cases are not subjected to the same loading or pressures as an engine.... apples to watermelons.

Mikes reply:

I am not an Engineer, but the loads on a Trans. are greater than you think, figure a Drag racer going down the Track...

As a matter of fact, every HP and amount of Torque that goes through the Motor must than go through the Trans. so, this novice thinks...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Isn't Phosphorus a detergent? And anti-wear?

Maybe it's not enough to be considered, and I have no idea how much is in oil.
.

Mikes reply:

They sure use it in laundry soap.

Just ask the fish in lake Okeechobee about the Phosphorus in a detergent, "OH" you can't cause there all dead...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

I always wanted to have a boat and name it "Unsinkable II"

K

Mikes reply:

Very funny

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

ATF is used in the New Process A833 manual trans as well.

K

Mikes reply:

As well as the Gear vendors in my Vehicle.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

ATF may be used in some manual trans & xfr cases... but it does not have the properties required for engine lubrication, detergents and neutralizing acids from combustion. Can't comment on the forces on gears doing a clutch dump, but it's not the same type of force that requires high levels of anti-wear and lubrication of engine oils, maybe those trans. are designed to be able to use ATF but I would never use it at full strength in an engine, and from what I've found with basic research, it doesn't clean as well either.

I'm not sure if phos. is a detergent, it is used mainly for anti-wear in combination with zinc to form ZDDP. Detergents are usually calcium, sodium, magnesium etc. Regardless, the PPM numbers are very low and not even close to the levels required for engine oil, phos & zinc are usually in the 900ppm range for off the shelf oils, specialty/race oils that so many people claim are needed for even stock broken in cams have 1000-1500 PPM zinc/phos, Dex3 ATF is 159phos & 17zinc!

Hey, looks like there is 1 vote for pure ATF now... was that Mr. Mike or another member? Please, post a comment as to why you voted for or use pure ATF in your engine.

Mr. Mike is here thanks for the invite, NOT..JUST KIDDING.

Not to say that you don't know what you're talking about, but I am only claiming to dush out a Motor for 30 min. with ATF, give me a break, it works for God's sake already...Others are doing the same with Naptha, diesel fuel , etc.. and you think I am crazy...

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 59safaricat

I've seen all of these work and more on friends/family vehicles. Seen MMO/Seafoam/1qt ATF unstick noisy sticky hyd lifters, sometimes within a couple minutes. Seen 15/40 diesel oil clean things up after a few oil changes using it with surprising results by pulling the valve covers for before/after shots. I heard of people using various amounts of kerosene/diesel fuel but never tried it myself. Me, I've always done all of my maintenance according to the severe maintenance schedule so I never had to use them in the crankcase of my personal vehicles but I had fun experimenting on others.

Mikes question:

Since you claim to have changed the Oil periodically over a long time, did the Engine still get dirty inside and what did you do if it needed cleaning and don't tell me it that never got clogged up with black crap, ever.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Agree 1qt of ATF or diesel etc... shouldn't hurt the engine but taking it easy while driving a short distance or idling since it does dilute the oils properties is a good idea... but the main point is ATF has much lower amounts of detergents as normal oils, so there isn't any reason or advantage to using it at any concentration over normal oil or other products designed to flush/clean an engine.

With the analysis results showing how low the detergents & all other additives are compared to oil, I hope this shows that using ATF to clean an engine is a flawed myth and using it full strength in an engine is not "wise" and will cause excessive wear that is just asking for problems.

Thanks to those who have voted so far.

Mikes reply:

Let me know how to vote, please.

Open up a filter one inch from the bottom around the circumference of the filter, then remove the guts and look between the pleats, I saw a video the other day on that topic.

I can eat off the Engine in my Engine Bay, both inside and out and dushing the Motor with Trans. fluid did not hurt my Engine, stop taking what I said out of context.

The problem with my Engine is this: "How many of you have heard that if you build the upper end of the motor only, that the bottom end will fail and vicea- versa.

Well, I built the entire upper end and now the bottom end failed. I guess they were correct. Most likely we think the strong top end out powered the weak old ancient lower end.

It was a good thing that we remanufactured the Heads at this time, because one Valve had 3 hair line cracks and at least 2 Valve seats were installed for the Exhaust Valves.

When we first started my 1967 428 ci HO with a 1966 Tri-power and TH 400 Trans. we found shortly there after while reaching speeds equal to 130 mph, that we were bending push rods x 2. Because we had a worn out 588 cam and a crack in a stud bolt to Rocker. Over the past 10 years we have found and fixed each issue, as they occurred.

Now the bottom end was found to have seven of eight pistons in backwards and at least one rod in backwards, some think it was a race thing to do, I think if you're going to reverse Pistons then do them all or not at all. Reversing a Rod is never done or so I have learned. Now I have to build the lower end and you will find me @ The next Thread will be called: 1967 Pontiac 428 ci Block" Build or not to Build", Myself?

I would have begun today with this new Thread but I stumbled across this one and found it interesting that it was about me.

P.S. This topic was done when it was in my post. Why bring it up in a new post, haven't you realized that people clean their motors the way it works for them, right wrong or indifferent?

Like you rudely did to me, please moderator put a stop to this madness, why let it go on any longer?

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by ANDYA

Filling an entire crankcase with ATF or kerosene is a little extreme and will probably do more harm than good. I am a believer in Marvel Mystery Oil and have seen it work as claimed many times over. I’ve used it many times in the past to quiet a noisy lifter or to clean out a high mileage engine but within reason. Trying to clean out an engine caked up heavily with sludge is looking for a miracle. I have noticed if I add a bottle of MMO to my oil a hundred miles before an oil change that the oil comes out very black so it is cleaning something out.

A neighbor of mine was the original owner of a 1970 Nova. Just a 350 2 barrel that was his daily driver up until he passed away in 2005. He managed to put over 230k miles on that car. As he got older, I would help him work on the car, tune ups, oil changes etc. One time as we were changing the valve cover gaskets, I remarked that his heads were amazingly clean for such high mileage, almost spotless. He told me that he had been using MMO in every other oil change since the car was new. I have seen many high mileage well maintained engines in my life that got oil changes at regular intervals but never one as clean as this.

As for the engines in my classic Pontiacs I never add anything but high quality, high zddp oil. I put very little miles on each one and I change the oil every year.

Mikes reply:

He could have used one qt of ATF and it would have done the same thing. JMO

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Yes, ATF doesn't have much detergent. Trans stay clean, because the oil stays clean, no combustion by products. That's why I think MMO is the way to go.

I have learned that MMO is similar to ATF and are interchangeable to one another for cleaning everything that MMO lists on their label.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by glenn911

in '88 i had a '76 Plymouth fury I bought off original owner. At 100k I wanted to clean up the engine so I removed valve covers to paint them. There was an 1.5" or so of hardened sludge in them! I used a putty knife and scraped them clean. My Dad said to fill it with kerosene, run it and drain it. I did, and a lot of stuff came out. That engine ran for several years until the trans went out, but man, did it smoke when you got on it after that flush!

Mikes reply:

A Mechanic told me about Motor- medic product I think, that puts a layer of ash over the worn-out valve seals to stop the blow by, it worked for me at the time, when I had a problem, plus it filled in the scratches in the cylinder walls, if I remember. The point is there are some products that work for specific reasons. No one product fix all, that is why I have to rebuild my motor now.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by ANDYA

Filling an entire crankcase with ATF or kerosene is a little extreme and will probably do more harm than good. I am a believer in Marvel Mystery Oil and have seen it work as claimed many times over. I’ve used it many times in the past to quiet a noisy lifter or to clean out a high mileage engine but within reason. Trying to clean out an engine caked up heavily with sludge is looking for a miracle. I have noticed if I add a bottle of MMO to my oil a hundred miles before an oil change that the oil comes out very black so it is cleaning something out.

A neighbor of mine was the original owner of a 1970 Nova. Just a 350 2 barrel that was his daily driver up until he passed away in 2005. He managed to put over 230k miles on that car. As he got older I would help him work on the car, tune ups, oil changes etc. One time as we were changing the valve cover gaskets I remarked that his heads were amazingly clean for such high mileage, almost spotless. He told me that he had been using MMO in every other oil change since the car was new. I have seen many high mileage well maintained engines in my life that got oil changes at regular intervals but never one as clean as this.

As for the engines in my classic Pontiacs I never add anything but high quality, high zddp oil. I put very little miles on each one and I change the oil every year.

Mikes reply two:

The Trans. Mechanic that taught me about putting the Trans. fluid in his Vehicle said that he used it full strength and went 300 k miles .

I deduced from that experience that I should be able to run my engine somewhat cleaner by using Trans. fluid full strength for 30 min. only, using a new filter while doing so, it has always worked for me.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

When I was in the Airforce back in 1973, I had a nice 67 GTO with an HO engine, PS, PB, AC, TH-400, his/her shifter, a very nice car. I put in a quart of engine flush and followed the instructions. Drained it and put in fresh oil and filter. Right after that I spun a rod bearing, I don't think it was a coincidence. I would never use any engine cleaner after that, commercial product or home brew. After that I picked up a 455 short block from a wrecking yard installed it with all the factory 400 stuff and it ran great and hauled ass and all was well.

Mikes reply:

It is ironic that you said that because it just happened to me.

I once put a solvent type cleaner in the H2O system and it caused the Hot water heater element to leak in my current 1992 B-250 Van, but you must remember how rotten and used these parts are and certainly cleaning the rust out of metal, there will be a thinner wall left, goes for Aluminum Condenser units to.

As my motor goes, I won't discount that cleaning the engine for the second time using Trans. fluid, kerosene, diesel fluid, etc... sped up the process, but it did not cause it. The motor has unknown miles on it and was rebuilt differently from factory specs for race reasons, in my case. In other words, it was going to happen anyway.

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by 1968GTO421

My take away from all the replies is to do frequent oil changes with a quality oil/filter and that should make a dirty engine come clean. Even if not a dirty engine to start with, just doing regular oil/filter changes will keep the engine clean inside. Lots of good info in this thread.

Mikes reply:

The one thing that I have learned so far is that the combustion process negates the fact that oil can ever be clean or not turn black. Case and point we just replaced my thin new 10-30 oil with 10-40 which is some 4 times thicker, from what I read, don't quote me and within one run it started to get Black, my roommate said: "I would be worried if it didn't".

[TRADERMIKE 2012]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Aren't there some lifters or rocker brands that say you should soak a roller rocker for instance in ATF for a while to clean it before install? I feel like I've read that somewhere.

Of the list ATF, or a commercial product make the most sense to me. However, that is a relative thing. I'm much more in the camp of, "just use good oil"

A diesel flush to prevent corrosion makes sense, though I think I would have stopped at a flush without running it.



My thoughts on this are that we are well into the information age. At this point, most things hot rod-related that really honest-to-goodness work are well documented, and tested. We aren't in the, "My nova with a 3/4 race cam jumped Coke cans in the rain" anymore. The very fact that we are debating it, makes my Spidey Sense tingle about the subject.

Mikes reply:

I watched a video on the topic of what lifters to soak and there are pros and cons, so I won't give any advice, but I can say that I soak my Johnson Hydraulic Lifters in oil prior to installation.

I agree with your statement: " I think I would have stopped at a flush, without running it." And I would add: on the road.

I would keep the vehicle in the driveway without a load on it.


See this Thread topic where it originated in Tradermike2012 posts, for more info.

"TH 400 Pontiac Transmission Build or not to Build Myself?"


The very fact that we are debating it makes my Spidey Sense tingle about the subject.